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CONLANG  November 2012, Week 2

CONLANG November 2012, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Logical conlang with easy phonology.

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 13 Nov 2012 19:39:36 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (82 lines)

On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 16:53:18 +0000, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Jim Henry, On 12/11/2012 15:58:
>> That might allow an engelang to get away with a significantly higher
>> ratio of real/possible words than the average natlang, but it might
>> also interfere with schemes for making the part of speech or
>> semantic category of a word obvious from its phonological form. I'm
>> still pretty sure a 100% ratio would be a recipe for disaster.
>
>I'm not. I doubt you'd find any evidence from natlangs of minimal-pair avoidance.

You'll find sòme, in cases of simultaneous phonetic and semantic propinquity.  For instance, I've heard that Brazilian Portuguese replaces _seis_ '6' with _meia_ 'half' [a dozen] in lists of digits, to avoid confusion with _três_ '3'.

>To minimize confusability of sentences, firstly one should, as you suggest, try to allocate lexical forms so as to avoid conjunctions of phonetic and semantic propinquity, and secondly one should try to ensure that contrasts among the phonetic expressions of minimal pairs are sufficiently robust.

This suggests to me that it might be possible to actually effectively compute a good Xorban lexicon on these principles:
(1) Come up with a measure of the phonetic similarity of two strings.
(2) Take the parsed corpus of extant Lojban, and use one of the natural language processing techniques which infer semantic distance from correlation among the contexts of words  on the set of gismu (each considered together with its rafsi etc.).
(3) Use a hill-climbing search to optimize the lexicon subject to a measure penalising pairs of words which are near both on (1) and on (2).  



On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:01:51 +0000, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Alex Fink, On 12/11/2012 18:32:
[...]
>Things like "log_2(2)" mean nothing to me, alas, even with Wikipedia to assist.

The logarithm to base 2 of 2; that is, 1, since 2^1 = 2.  

>Let me see if I understand you. Suppose Lgs A and B are all CV syllables. Lg A has 64 syllables. Lg B has 128 syllables. Lg A requires 6 bits per syll, and Lg B requires 7 bits per syll, so Lg B encodes not 100% more info than A but rather only 16.7% more? That's kind of counterintuitive, because roughly speaking you can say 100% more things unambiguously in B (e.g. if each syllable were an interjection).

Yes, the 16.7% figure is what I was getting at.  To point towards why this is a sensible way to measure information, suppose that there are 2^42 messages you might want to convey unambiguously.  To do this in Lg A, each message needs to consist of 7 syllables; in Lg B, each message needs to consist of 6; and we will use up all the messages of each length[1].  It's reasonable, then, to say that if a quantity I of information will be conveyed by which message is chosen, each Lg A syllable carries 1/7 of I, and each Lg B syllable carries 1/6 of I.  

[1] To be scrupulously correct, a small fraction of the messages might get by with slightly shorter encodings.  But this makes a meagre difference here, and makes even less as the number of messages grows and the proportional savings shrinks.

>>> In an effective loglang, I think the success and effectiveness will
>>> depend on the predicate--argument structure being encoded in a
>>> sufficiently backgrounded way. This is only hunchy speculation,
>>> tho.
>>
>> Do you think Xorban is doing this well? Having multiple distinct
>> pronouns with no syntactic or semantic difference between them is
>> sufficiently unexampled in natlangs that it makes me worry that the
>> thoroughgoing use of named variables in Xorban might not be
>> sufficiently backgroundable (without damage).
>
>I think the Xorban system is backgrounded, because it's obligatory. I also think it's extremely easy to grasp and learn the rules for it, which is a big plus if you want the language to be a plausible choice for significant real-world usage (as a quasi-auxlang).
[...]
>As a loglang with auxlang potential, Xorban is the best candidate currently available. But as a pure system (i.e. ignoring auxlang potential), Livagian falls less far short of being the perfect loglang.

Fair enough.  I don't envy working to meet at once the disparate goals of Logic and Auxiliarity!  (Though to be honest auxlangery leaves me uninterested on the whole, especially where it leaves "be accessible" and enters "be accessible to speakers of Mandarin, English, yadda yadda".)

>However, I also think that the Xorban system imposes very heavy loads on short-term memory (i.e. stuff you have to remember while processing the sentence and can then forget). (And indeed, some proposed versions of Xorban impose an even heavier load.) Natlangs make hardly any use (if any) of short-term ad-hoc naming. This makes me suspect that Xorban could never be spoken -- and, especially, heard -- anywhere near as effortlessly and fluently as a natlang. That's not so much of a problem if it were mainly used in written form, tho.

Yes, these are similar to my suspicions.  

In fact I have a guess as to what would happen to Xorban if it took root into the wild: it would turn into a case system.  There is enough similarity between a simple sentence with default variable choices
  l-a bcd-a l-e fgh-e l-i jkl-i csk-akeki
and a sentence in a natlang with a case system
  ART-NOM bcd-NOM ART-ACC fgh-ACC ART-DAT jkl-DAT say-3>3>3
that this kind of reanalysis would be tempting.  A variable like _i_ could pick up connotations of dative-ness due to uses like this, and then come to be preferred for dative arguments even where an _i_ is already in use, and end up as simply the dative variable, used for the argument which is recipient in the main verb.  Etc.  

>I'll offer a comparison with the Livagian system. Each word consists of a predicate stem plus a number of affixes encoding how its arguments map to the still-accessible arguments of the rest-of-the-sentence-so-far. (Still-accessible arguments are those that will be cobound with an argument of a later predicate.) This still imposes a short-term memory load: an ordered list of still-accessible arguments must be remembered. Natlangs kind of do do this, in that when you have nested filler--gap constructions you can have a stack of fillers waiting to be matched with their gap. But Livagian does it on a much more intensive scale. OTOH, Livagian has no other syntax, so the entirety of the morphosyntactic processing effort is devoted to this list-processing. Compared to Xorban, the Livagian system is much harder to grasp and learn the rules of, and harder to become an accomplished user of, but I think it makes less unrealistic cognitive demands on real-time use. Nevertheless, becaus
>e it is not based on hierarchical syntax, it seems quite likely that the processing cannot make use of the innate processing facility of the language faculty. As for backgrounding of predicate--argument structure in Livagian, on the one hand it is obligatory and is syntactic rather than lexical, so is as backgrounded as much as possible, but on the other hand I'm fairly sure that especially if I tried to keep predicate stems as short as possible, quite a large majority of the phonological string would be given over to encoding predicate--argument structure, tho in that respect it's not unlike some of the highly inflected classical Indo European lgs, in which the majority of the word consists of inflectional suffixes.

I take it you think that there is an innate facility for hierarchical syntax, then.  Though this is a popular assumption, I don't want to take it for granted.  It seems also plausible to me that hierarchical syntax might arise more or less automatically from any language-like system on which analogy between constituents of possibly different makeup is allowed to act long enough, and could remain processed in those terms, in a way very compatible with construction grammar.   (But sadly, this subject seems one on which it would take a lot of investment of effort for me to see past the inter-school bickering in the literature.)  

In any case, I have built previous projects on simplifications of this body type, but I'm not so keen on it for real-time processability anymore.  Ordered lists are genuinely hard, in cases where tail-recursion or head-recursion can't eliminate them.   I could imagine that Livagian might well improve on mine by having greater flexibility, so that sufficiently simple clauses wouldn't bite into the stack depth at all or some such.  

In fact it might be interesting to try to build a loglang along genuinely case agreement-ish lines, like my perversion of Xorban above.

>> (ASL with its spatial pronouns are arguably an example of this,
>> though. Can I wriggle out by saying that ASL pronouns do connote
>> (metaphorical) spatial location?)
>
>Good point & good question. I think the difference in the SL case is that assigned locations are partly iconic and are assigned to discourse-prominent referents and are managed as part of discoure organization, rather than being assigned to every single argument of every single predicate and managed as part of morphosyntax.

Mm.  I might add that, as a feature of human cognition, it seems that associations of referents to _locations_ are easler to remember than associations of referents to positions in an ordered list.  The classical _method of loci_ memory hack attests to the former; for the latter my understanding is that the best ordinary recourse is to keeping a loop of sound in short-term auditory memory, which I doubt is freely accessible when the language faculties are otherwise engaged.

Alex

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August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
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June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
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August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
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July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
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May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
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November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 1
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
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July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
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May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
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March 2004, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 3
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September 2003, Week 1
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August 2003, Week 3
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August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
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September 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 1
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January 2000, Week 4
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
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November 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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