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CONLANG  November 2012, Week 2

CONLANG November 2012, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Logical conlang with easy phonology.

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 14 Nov 2012 04:41:41 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

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Parts/Attachments

text/plain (98 lines)

On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 01:41:19 +0000, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Alex Fink, On 14/11/2012 00:39:
>> This suggests to me that it might be possible to actually effectively
>> compute a good Xorban lexicon on these principles:
>> (1) Come up with a measure of the phonetic similarity of two strings.
>> (2) Take the parsed corpus of extant Lojban, and use one of the
>> natural language processing techniques which infer semantic distance
>> from correlation among the contexts of words on the set of gismu
>> (each considered together with its rafsi etc.).
>> (3) Use a hill-climbing search to optimize the lexicon subject to a
>> measure penalising pairs of words which are near both on (1) and on
>> (2).
>
>Why Lojban in particular in Step 2? Because it has no homonymy and little synonymy, and a sizable corpus? 

I named Lojban because that's what you were defaulting to in the Xorban lexis at present and didn't think to generalise it.  But the properties you name are indeed both useful here.  Esperanto might work too; Lojban has a less prodigal root list, and decomposes a bit better, but Esperanto has it handily beat on corpus size.  Or even a composite of the two (or more); that would require a good Lojban-Esperanto dictionary, and be messy to set up, but it might help to smooth away oddities in the sets of roots of either one.

>It'd be cool if somebody did do Step 2, and wrote a program for Step 3, for then it could allow Step 3 to be applied to any engelang.

Yes!  Jim, do you have something close to this written already?

>Is the counterintuitiveness just because of my undoubed mathematical naivety and obtuseness, or is it because you (or Information Theory) are thinking about the amount of info in the encoding/signans, whereas I am thinking about the amount of info that is encoded, i.e. is in the signatum?
>
>If Lg C has 1024 sylls and Lg D has 2048, D has only 10% more info than C at the encoding level but can still encode twice as much info as C in a given number of sylls. (No?) From a linguistic perspective, isn't it more relevant to say that D encodes 100% more info than C than to say D encodes 10% more info than C?

It might be that I'm too immersed in the way information theorists and their ilk use "information" that I'm blinded to its counter-intuitiveness.  I can't see how to make a signans vs. signatum difference of it.  

At any rate, in the way of speaking where D encodes twice as much information as C in one syllable, it then encodes four times as much in two syllables (4194304 items vs. 1048576), and 2^n times as much in n syllables.  So there is no invariant ratio by which D encodes more information than C, but a power law: D encodes the 1.1th power of what C does.  

>> I take it you think that there is an innate facility for hierarchical
>> syntax, then. Though this is a popular assumption, I don't want to
>> take it for granted.
>
>I don't take it for granted, but it seems probable, given the available evidence -- sufficiently probable to make me skeptical about Livagian's ability to be processed by the language faculty's built-in processor.
>
>> It seems also plausible to me that hierarchical syntax might arise
>> more or less automatically from any language-like system on which
>> analogy between constituents of possibly different makeup is allowed
>> to act long enough, and could remain processed in those terms, in a
>> way very compatible with construction grammar. (But sadly, this
>> subject seems one on which it would take a lot of investment of
>> effort for me to see past the inter-school bickering in the
>> literature.)
>
>Could you elaborate on this para? I didn't understand it.

I think my intent was a little confused there.  Part of it is restated better in my next paragraph.  The other part was that I don't think hierarchical syntax is particularly mystifying developmentally, and was probably a quick and inexorable phenomenon to become emergent at the moment speakers of a pre-language used analogy to substitute a phrase in one of their non-hierarchical templates where a single word had been required before.  Or the same even without substitution, if a template ever became semantically subordinate to an adjacent one.  Accordingly I doubt _hierarchicality_ per se was what our language module needed updating for -- since it still doesn't have that, much! -- but more like just a relaxation of a severe constraint on the longest permissible unit that could be interpreted at once.  (Two words?  English-speaking young kids go through a two-word phase, and ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.)

>> In any case, I have built previous projects on simplifications of
>> this body type, but I'm not so keen on it for real-time
>> processability anymore. Ordered lists are genuinely hard, in cases
>> where tail-recursion or head-recursion can't eliminate them. I could
>> imagine that Livagian might well improve on mine by having greater
>> flexibility, so that sufficiently simple clauses wouldn't bite into
>> the stack depth at all or some such.
>
>And elaborate on this para too (which I didn't understand enough of, either)?

I was calling attention to the old center-embedding problem, that the language faculty fails to retain the stack after two-ish recursions.  Left- and right- embedding (without long internal branches) don't incur the same penalties; and these are the cases whose on-the-fly processing can be implemented without needing a stack, using tail recursion and its head analogue.  That suggests to me that, although perhaps diachronic forces or whatever tend towards hierarchicality, it isn't something our language module is built to interpret at all (max stack depth of 1?  Dr. Brain's _Motor Programming_ robot had better than that!) and so natlangs cop out by tending to uniformly head-last so as to enable tail-recursion, or vice literaliter versa.  

>The Livagian system allows arguments to be erased from working memory once they no longer need to remain accessible, but there's no way round the fact that still-accessible arguments are distinguished by their relative order (in an abstract sequence). Can you think of an alternative? either some data structure less cognitively taxing than a list, or some completely different scheme?

This caseoid system is an attempt at that, with the hopeful premise that an associative array i.e. map i.e. hash(-table) i.e. dictionary data structure be less cognitively taxing than a list.  In a list, you have to do operations like introduce an item and slide all the others along.  In an associative array, all you have to do in one step is link and unlink single items from particular keys; there is no shuffling B and C and D along just 'cause you added or removed A.

>> In fact it might be interesting to try to build a loglang along
>> genuinely case agreement-ish lines, like my perversion of Xorban
>> above.
>
>I'd like to see you sketch it out -- I don't see how it would work. (It goes without saying, of course, that it must encode logical form fully and unambiguously.)

Alright, I'll try to think a bit more through how the predicates-and-arguments skeleton of it might work.  

I want to be able to say more or less
    nurse.NOM teacup.ACC throw.3>3
(or possibly the same in a better-chosen case system) for "the nurse threw the teacup" (putting aside worries about "the"), and have this work out to
    nurse(n) & teacup(a) & throw(n, a).  
So the lexical entry for the "throw" lexeme would contain the argument--variable mappings {thrower: n, projectile: a}, and when used with this default 3>3 affix (which concision suggests making as formally empty as possible) uses those mappings in the clause.  The lexical entry for "teacup" would also contain some argument--variable mapping {teacup: foo}, for some variable foo; by explicitly saying "teacup.ACC" I'm overwriting the foo binding with an  a  binding.  In fact, in a nominative-accusative-flavoured system, the lexical case for typical unary noun-like predicates might also be nominative, so that "nurse.NOM" and "nurse.3" would be the same thing, the as formally empty as possible one.  

Two important choices already are:
- What case system shall we use?  We want one that allows the defaults to be used in the greatest proportion of pragmatically arising sentences.  Among other aspects, this subsumes the question of pivots.  For instance if I want to be able to say
    nurse(x) & teacup(y) & throw(x, y) & break(y)
"the nurse threw the teacup and it[sic] broke" with default argument--variable mapping on "throw" and "break", I've got to be using ergative alignment.  Or again, is it worth it to treat animate nounish predicates and inanimate ones differently, so that "nurse" and "teacup" might also both be default-marked here?

- What manipulations of the defaults should we put in?  Two natlang models for this are case = changing the explicit binding of the one argument in a unary predicate, as above -- but what's the best way to use it in multary predicates? -- and voice, which I suppose subsumes quite a number of manipulations, including ones like applicatives which might as well take an arbitrary case.  So what's the right common generalisation of voice and case?  
One type of voice that I'd be a priori averse to, by the way, are the Fith or Lojban style shell-game voices.  It's presumably rarely indeed that you need bòth reassignments which would be made by a case _switch_, and so switches probably shouldn't be atomic operations but composites.

Then there's the problem of subclauses reusing variables, which I can't entirely wriggle out of even with a good case system: take "the cat ate the rat which ate the grain".  So I guess either we have whole series of secondary cases for conflict avoidance in subclauses, as in
    cat(n) & rat(a) & eat(n, a) & grain(a') & eat(a, a') ;
or we allow some variables to be reused within subclauses, which on the face of it seems to have the better naturalistic analogy, relative pronouns:
    cat(n) & rat(a) & eat(n, a) & relpron(a; [n) & grain(a) & eat(n, a) ] .
The relpron says that what is  a  on its outside is  n  on its inside; the misnested brackets express uncertainty about how to best realise that in syntax.  Actually I guess I could also just give up and go analytic here and use two clauses, assuming that the scope of a variable binding is a clause:
    cat(n) & rat(a) & eat(n, a).  n=a_last & grain(a) & eat(n, a).
Herein n=a_last is some kind of short-range anaphoric pronoun.  It feels somehow inelegant to resort to that so soon, but maybe that's an accidental effect of being raised on ultimately Latinate notions of elegance or whatnot.  
-- You said Livagian is ahierarchical; can the way it is so be parlayed to this situation?

Alex

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July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
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June 2007, Week 5
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May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
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April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
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March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
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February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
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January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
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November 2006, Week 3
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November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
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October 2006, Week 1
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August 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
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July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
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May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
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September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
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July 2005, Week 3
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July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
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March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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August 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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