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CONLANG  November 2012, Week 2

CONLANG November 2012, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Logical conlang with easy phonology.

From:

"Mike S." <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 9 Nov 2012 14:14:30 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (230 lines)

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> 2012/11/9 Mike S. <[log in to unmask]>
>
> > On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 6:53 PM, Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]
> > >wrote:
> > > And, with these phoneme classes' deffinitions, I considered including
> the
> > > following patterns:
> > >
> > > 1. CVNCV ;
> > > 2. CVNCAu ;
> > > 3. CVNCAuA ;
> > > 4. CuACV ;
> > > 5. CuACAu ;
> > > 6. CuACAuA ;
> > > 7. CAu ;
> > > 8. CAuA ;
> > > 9. [CV], [CuA] and [CVN] as a possible preffixes of any of the
> preceding
> > > patterns.
> > >
> >
> > I think that you will have to decide if you want CV to be a prefix or the
> > ending of a noun/verb, because otherwise CVNCVCVNCV is ambiguous; is it
> two
> > noun/verbs, or one noun/verb with two prefixes?
> >
> >
> Thank you for asking! I was waiting for this question!
> First of all, note that my rule doesn't explicitly allows you to mix [CV]
> with [CVN] in the prefix. If use only one of them, you'll see that
> amibiguity will be not possible.
>

Okay I *think* I understand.  I think you can mix prefixes, but you have to
mix them in a certain order.  If you consider all permutations, I think
your system allows three types of words.

1. CVNCV, CuACV, CAu and CAuA are "type A" words (exactly patterns 1, 4, 7,
8).

2. Any type A word prefixed with one or more CVN and/or CuA are "type B"
words (patterns 2, 3, 5, 6 are included here)

3. Any type A word OR type B word prefixed with one or more CV is a "type
C" word.

To say all that in BNF without distinguishing types:

word := ( CV )* ( CVN | CuA )* ( CVNCV | CuACV | CAu | CAuA )

A word is zero or more CV prefixes, followed by zero or more CVN / CuA
prefixes, followed by a (mandatory) choice of CVNCV, CuACV, CAu, or CAuA.



>
> However, in order to give you a better answer, I have to explain what I
> imagined the "prefixes" would be for:
>
> When sketching conlangs, I always thought that it's a pity that I have to
> spend basic roots to mean specific fruits, animals, tools, etc., so I
> imagining using "prefixes" that are not really prefixes, but "universe
> locator" that would allow me to use the same roots for completely different
> purposes.
>
> That is to say that, in fact, what I call "prefixes" would be part of the
> roots, but all "fruits and vegetables" would start with "po-", all "small
> tools" would start with "ki", all animals would start with "so-", and so
> on. Naturally, only classes with an unpredictable number of components
> would have such "prefixes": plants, tecniques, games, etc.
>
> Then, I don't think that a word would have more than a single prefix, so
> there will not be ambiguity. Indeed, my original idea for item 9 was simply
>
> 9. [CV] as a possible prefix.
>

Okay, now that I have a better idea of what you have in mind, I think the
Ceqli-like system that I sketched probably doesn't bear any particular
advantage.



>
>
>
> > Concerning phonotactics:  Was it your intention to allow CVNnV and CVNmV
> to
> > be roots?  Was it your intention to disallow "uju"?
> >
>
> No, I would not allow pre-nasal nasal stops. After I wrote my e-mail, I
> noted that this rule was not explicitly stated but I was too tired to
> correct it.
>

No problem, just a minor point.  It's tricky to write perfect rules, even
for "easy" phonologies.



>
>
> >
> > ------------------
> > I think that you may face limitations due to the small number of
> primitive
> > morphemes that your scheme allows.  Have you considered a scheme similar
> to
> > Ceqli and Guaspi but with an easier phonology?   Such a scheme would
> allow
> > a greater number of two-syllable and three-syllable morphemes (though
> fewer
> > one-syllable roots unfortunately):
> >
>
> > ["Obstruent"] C := p | t | k | f | s | h
> > ["Sonorant"] S := m | n | l | w | j
> > ["Vowel"] V := a | e | i | o | u
> >
> > A _root_ is made of CV or CSV followed by zero or more of SV.
> >
> > root := C (S) V (S V)*
> >
>
> Well, what I want is a "Lojban for Guarani speakers" or, more
> realistically, "Lojban for Japanese speakers". If Japanese people can be so
> technologically developed with such a restricted phonology, it's just a
> matter of reorganizing phonemes to guarantee self-segregating morphology.
>
> I'm not sure if Japanese speaker would be able to easily pronounce this
> root, what do you think? By the way, have someone ever heard about any
> non-linguist native Japanese speaker speaking Lojban properly?
>

The standard pronunciation of Lojban is doubtless a nightmare for Japanese
speakers, but so is English or even Portuguese, probably.  On the other
hand, Japanese does not sound *trivially* easy to me -- it has a smaller
phoneme set but a lot of allophonic variation, including voiceless vowels,
and is rattled off like a machine gun (in my ears).

However, I think that the phonology that you developing is on the right
track with respect to achieving a cross-linguistically relatively easy to
pronounce language.



>
> ---
>
> To give you an idea of what I'm imagining, let me give some examples of
> possible words (you can propose better choices):
>
> * Pronouns:
>
> kiei: I, me
> tiei: you
> miei: someone
> luai: other
> miei luai: someone else (?)
> suou: all
>
> * Nouns/verbs:
>
> root + (-i or -u): noun
> root + (-e or -o): verb
> root + -a: component of multi-root word
>
> lanti: speaker
> lantu: language
> lante : to speak a language
> lanto : to be spoken by
> lanta-lieni : student of language (maybe)
>
> and maybe also:
>
> lantai : infinitive/process of speaking
> lantau : infinitive/process of being spoken
>
> * "Universe locator":
>
> po- : fruits and vegetables
> popuani : banana
>  -> although "puan-" could mean, say, "mister" [from Swahili bwana])
> pomansi : apple
>  -> although "manse", "mansu" and "mansu" could mean "to eat", "eater" and
> "food" [from Italian mangiare])
>
> na- : nationality
> nahinti : Indian
> nahinki : English
> nahiusi : American = USA-ian
>
> * Modifiers (post-positions):
>
> -tei: too
> Ex.: Lieku-tei linte! : The books is also beautiful!
>
> -mei: may/might (?) (probability)
> Ex.: Lieku linte-mei! : The book is probably beautiful!
>
> -mai: may/might (?) (possibility)
> Ex.: Lieku-mai linte! : What is possible a book is beautiful!
>         Lieku linte-mai! : The book is possibly beautiful!
>
> * Conjunctions:
>
> I'm now considered to define them as CuANCV:
>
> kuanse : {event-1} cause {event-2}
> kuanso : {event-1} is the consequence of {event-2}
> kuansi : cause (noun)
> kuansu : consequence
>
> ---
>
> Comments are welcome!
>

Can words like "lieku" and "mei" be pronounced [li.je.ku] and [me.ji] as
well as [lje.ku] and [mej]?  It wouldn't hurt anything and help some people.

-- 
co ma'a mke

Xorban blog: Xorban.wordpress.com <http://xorban.wordpress.com/>
My LL blog: Loglang.wordpress.com <http://loglang.wordpress.com/>

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October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
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July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
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June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
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May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
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March 2004, Week 1
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February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
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September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 1
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April 2000, Week 1
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March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
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October 1999, Week 1
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September 1999, Week 1
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June 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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