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CONLANG  November 2012, Week 2

CONLANG November 2012, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Which phoneme do you feel that fits better which pronoun?

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 11 Nov 2012 16:58:44 +0100

Content-Type:

Text/Plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

Text/Plain (93 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On Saturday 10 November 2012 17:22:33 R A Brown wrote:

> On 10/11/2012 12:45, Leonardo Castro wrote:
> > 2012/11/10 R A Brown
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >> I guess the reason I haven't replied sooner is that
> >> the question seems to me really a non-question.  There
> >> is IMO no sort of in-built appropriateness of any set
> >> of phones being "more proper" for 1st person pronouns
> >> or for interrogatives.
> > 
> > That's why I asked about your "feelings"...
> 
> Well, I didn't have strong feelings one way or the other  ;)

Nor do I.  The notion that certain phonemes are "more appropriate"
to particular pronoun categories is IMHO misguided - natlangs use
all sorts of phonemes for all sorts of pronouns.  The frequency
of "M-T" pronouns in northern Eurasia may just indicate that those
languages are distantly related, though the time depth would be
so great that the relationship was very difficult to demonstrate.

I have used the "M-T" pattern in Old Albic, but then I fancy that
language to be related to IE.

> > Besides, I like sound symbolism and I have realized that
> > 
> >  /k/ would be nice for "proximity". As I wanted the same
> >  morpheme for "I, here, my, this", and I'm a little
> > 
> > biased towards /k/ sound in Portuguese "aqui" (here) and
> > "cá" (here [too]), I wanted to know if it felt strange
> > to use it also for "I, my, self". I reminded that velar
> > sounds are present in "ego", "jag", Proto-Germanic
> > *ek<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Germanic/ek>,
> > 
> >  Proto-Indo-European
> > 
> > *éǵh₂<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/%C3%A9%C
> > 7%B5h%E2%82%82>,
> 
> All true - and finding /k/ in other languages I guess
> reinforces this.

Uralic has *-k as the first person stative (actually attested only
in Hungarian and Southern Samoyedic, though), which may be related
to PIE first person stative *-h₂.  In my Old Albic, the first person
stative ending is -ha.
 
> > As I don't know many non-IE languages, it is now nice to
> > 
> >  read from you that /k/ is actually used in many
> > 
> > languages for 1st person. I know I could simply choose
> > anything, such as "tuou", for 1st person, but there
> > might exist more probable patterns, don't you think so?
> 
> Possibly. I've studied to a greater or lesser degree as many
> languages as I can over the past 64 years or so - I never
> cease to be surprised at what I actually find in natlangs!

I have not been studying languages for that long, but my
experience is basically the same.
 
> >> Surely it depends upon the sort of conlang one is
> >> designing and on what the designer prefers.  If one
> >> cannot really decide, IMO tossing a coin is the
> >> simplest way to decide   :)
> > 
> > But discussing it in a list is more amusing and I learn
> > more!
> 
> Yes.
> 
> But I think it really does matter what sort of conlang one
> is constructing.

Indeed, indeed!

> There are some conlangs, e,g, Classical
> Yiklasmu and Neoquux, that do not have personal pronouns.

Yep.  There are several ways of getting along without them.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1

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