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CONLANG  November 2012, Week 3

CONLANG November 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: A Two-Word dictionary

From:

Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 20 Nov 2012 07:34:44 -0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (59 lines)

2012/11/20 Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]>:
> On 19 November 2012 21:31, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>
>> It just feels to me like when you put the noun first followed by the
>> adjectives you have give me the punch line first, and then proceed to tell
>> the joke. You've revealed who the murderer is, and then begin to tell us
>> the mystery.
>>
>>
> Somehow, as a French native speaker fluent in English and Dutch, I get the
> exact opposite feeling. Having to put the noun last forces me to decide
> which properties I'm going to mention before even mentioning the noun. If
> there are many of them, people are going to have to keep them in mind until
> I finally tell them to what item they apply to. Given that various
> adjectives can have quite different meanings depending on which noun they
> apply to, the cognitive load is high. Luckily English puts relative clauses
> *after* the noun, so this lightens the load somewhat (Japanese is more
> difficult in that respect). By the way, the fact that relative clauses go
> behind the noun they complete completely destroys your argument that the
> presence of a noun clearly marks the end of the noun phrase. This may be a
> valid argument in Japanese, but it certainly isn't in English.
>
> What's my point? Basically that the only reason you prefer your adjectives
> in front of your nouns is pure native habit, just like my preference for
> adjectives after nouns is also pure native habit. Pragmatic issues have
> little to do with it, as both orders have their pragmatic advantages and
> drawbacks.

What do you think about the following rule?

19. "When the general rule is that the descriptive adjective follows,
there may be a minority of adjectives which usually precede, but when
the general rule is that descriptive adjectives precede, there are no
exceptions."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenberg%27s_linguistic_universals

[...]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:31:20 -0800, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I've tried both ways, and being a native English speaker who is reasonably
>fluent in Spanish I am familiar with both orders.
>
>However, I prefer adjective (or adjective-like noun) first for what I think
>is a logical reason: Given a noun phrase with more than one adjective, the
>presence of the noun clearly marks the end of the noun phrase and you know
>you're done with it. "The big, hungry, black bear ate the berries."
>
>Whereas when the adjectives follow the noun having more than two adjectives
>becomes very clumsy [...]

Maybe we should distinguish real compound nouns from "nouns with
adjectives". Usually, compound nouns are pronounced all of a sudden as
a single word, so you don't have time to think about it. E.g., the
Brazilian town name "Piracanjuba" means "yellow (juba) -headed (acang)
fish (pira)" (from Tupi), but I think that pt-BR and Tupi speakers
always pronounced it without a breath in between.

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