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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  November 2012, Week 3

CONLANG November 2012, Week 3

Subject:

circumfixed negation (was: French diglossia (was and I/me in other languages))

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Tue, 20 Nov 2012 16:48:03 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (76 lines)

On 20/11/2012 12:21, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
> On 20 November 2012 11:18, Leonardo Castro wrote:
[snip]
>> What feels strange about "ne...pas" *to me* is not that
>> it is a "double negation", but that you *must* put the
>> "...pas" in a position that looks unnatural to my
>> non-native syntaxometer because it usually separes
>> object from verb or verb from verb and sometimes it's
>> so far from the "ne..." ("je ne me laisse pas avoir par
>> mes émotions") that I don't even remember that I must
>> finish my negation brackets (OK, "circumfix"), so I
>> frequently forget it.
>>
> Which makes it unintelligible in French.

Yes indeed!

Leonardo had better keep clear of Welsh & Breton because
they also behave similarly.  Or rather, unlike French, while
literary Welsh can have a single negative before the verb,
the _spoken_ has it on both sides  :)

In the literary language one can just have _ni_ before the
verb.  _Ni_ is rather jolly in the before _g, b, d, ll, m,
rh_ it causes soft mutation, but before _c, p, t_ it causes
spirant mutation    :)
e.g.
Gwelodd (ef) = he saw
Ni welodd (ef) = He didn't see

But in the spoken language _ni_ is dropt - rather like _ne_
is spoken French, *but the mutation remains* and we add
_ddim_ after the subject, e.g
(ni) welodd e ddim = he didn't see.

Negative particle/mutation - verb & subject - ddim

I'm sure this 'circumfixed' negative style is not just
confined to French and (all/some?) insular Celtic langs.

[snip]
>> "Não sei, não." ("I don't know [no].")
>>
>> in Brazil. As the first "não" usually is reduced to a
>> fast "num" and the emphasis moves to the second "não",
>> it might be a kind of Jespersen cycle as well. What is
>> different from "ne...pas" is that both "não" are
>> optional, as one can say
>>
>> "Não sei." "Sei não." "Não, não sei, não." "Num sei,
>> não." "N'sei não."
>>
>>
> In Afrikaans, that'd be "ek nie weet nie", with both
> "nie" mandatory :) . In Spoken French, you'd just say
> "j'sais pas" :) .

...and in spoken Welsh it's: wn i ddim
where:
_wn_ /u:n/ is the soft mutated form of _gwn_ = (I) know
i = I
ddim = not

	:-)

Thinks: What does Brithenig do?

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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