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CONLANG  November 2012, Week 3

CONLANG November 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Irish prepositions

From:

Eric Christopherson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 21 Nov 2012 22:19:57 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (58 lines)

On Nov 20, 2012, at 8:04 PM, Alex Fink wrote:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Eric Christopherson <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: 20 November 2012 09:39
> Subject: Re: Irish prepositions
> To: Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>
> 
> 
> Alex, thanks for the reply. Did you reply directly to me instead of
> the list because I messed up the To:/Cc: headers in my message? I'm
> not sure whether to reply to you or the list. For now I'll just reply
> to you; you can forward to the list if you like.
> 
> [AF: no, it was just a seemingly unnecessary measure to conserve
> quota.  Thanks!]
> 
> On Nov 18, 2012, at 7:40 PM, Alex Fink wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 19:29:17 -0600, Eric Christopherson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Nov 18, 2012, at 7:26 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Nov 16, 2012, at 10:46 PM, Ph. D. wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I know Irish has "conjugated" prepositions: ag = at, agam = at me, agat = at you.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But how do they express a noun and pronoun together as the object of a preposition?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Seán and I have a car = Tá carr ag Seán agus agam  ??
>>>> 
>>>> Sorry, I don't know the answer to this, but it reminds me of a question I've had for a while:
>>>> 
>>>> Are Celtic-style (or Semitic-style, if those show the same phenomenon) "conjugated prepositions" truly conjugated -- in the sense that distinguishes conjugated verbs from verbs with cliticized pronouns? If so, I wonder if their development might provide insight into how verbal conjugation comes about (since we have fairly good knowledge of non-conjugated prepositions in IE to contrast with their conjugated counterparts).
>>> 
>>> I forgot to clarify a little bit -- my question is basically whether the term "conjugated" with reference to the Celtic pronouns is actually used in an accepted linguistic sense, or if it's just a handy not-quite-accurate label.
>>> 
>>> (Of course, there might be less agreement on what "conjugation" means w.r.t. verbs than I would imagine.)
>> 
>> I don't know much about the craft of distinguishing points on the cline from clitic to inflection.  But your wonder seems strange to me: at what level do we not understand how verbal conjugation arises (on the surface level we _do_ understand the usual case -- it's grammaticalisation of once-independent pronominal arguments!) that we would gain from this example?
> 
> Well, as I understand it, it's often fairly clear that
> person/number/gender conjugation markers are related in some way to
> independent pronouns, but there are at least two and a half issues
> that separate them in my mind:
> 1. Many languages have *required* PNG markers, even in the case of the
> 3rd person (that is, a verb can have and sometimes must have an overt
> NP *and* a PNG marker).
> 2. Many languages with subject-first word orders have suffixal PNG
> markers. One would expect a subject PNG affix to attach to the verb in
> the same place as the independent subject pronoun would.
> 2.5. The formal match isn't always 100% between the two types of
> morphemes. Perhaps the mere fact of the markers fusing onto their
> heads prompts sound changes that wouldn't occur with independent
> pronouns. And I wonder what led to the Arabic active pattern where
> several PNG combinations have a ta- prefix but different suffixes.

Thanks, Alex. I hadn't thought about the quota; I could have forwarded myself in that case.

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