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CONLANG  November 2012, Week 3

CONLANG November 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: French diglossia (was and I/me in other languages)

From:

Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 20 Nov 2012 08:18:47 -0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (108 lines)

2012/11/19 Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]>:
> On 19 November 2012 20:27, Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>
>> I have heard that "Disais-je" is still used in Switzerland...
>>
>>
> Could well be. It might also be used as a set phrase, fossilised in this
> form, like "n'est-ce pas".

The sometimes-declared-extinct pt-BR pluperfect tense also has its
fossils: "quem dera" or "quisera eu" ("I wish", "if only") and "tambm
pudera" ("it could be any different").

>> What's really strange is the use of French "l". In same cases, it seems
>> that "l" means "ici", while I would expect them to have opposite meanings.
>>
>
> I believe your analysis is mistaken. In the question "T'es o l ?", "l"
> refers to the position of the listener (the position that is enquired
> about), not of the speaker,

I would hardly think that, as in my native language "l" is even more
distant: it's "out there", "far from me and from you", the "3rd
position" (not necessarily where a 3rd person is). BTW, the
3-positions locator system is something I miss when speaking some
other languages.

> and thus fits neatly with the meaning "there"

The situtation I referred to is the following:

During a meeting with her Doctorate Professor in the "Universit
Pierre et Marie Curie", a friend of mine heard the Prof saying
something like this (but in French): "Now, we stop this meeting and we
come back there tomorrow." As the Prof used "l", my friend asked "l
o?" thinking that tomorrow's meeting would be in another place, but
the "l" referred to that same place they were (so why not using
"ici"?).

Well, as both of them were in the same place, the 1st and 2nd persons'
places were the same, but I would expect them to use "ici" that would
give an idea of proximity. Or maybe there were "time-reference"
instead of "place-reference" involved in all this.

[...]

2012/11/20 Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]>:
> On 20 November 2012 00:54, Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>
>> I would never know that people could naturally speak such a thing as
>> French "ne...pas" (kind of mandatory negation brackets) if I hadn't
>> studied French.
>
>
> Well, that's only true of Written French. In Spoken French "ne" is optional
> at best (in fact, it's more or less dead).

I.e., it's the end of a Jespersen's cycle.


> Somehow, double negations (what you call negation brackets) are not
> uncommon in the world's languages. WALS (http://wals.info/chapter/112)
> lists 120 out of a sample of 1159 languages as using double negations.

I know it. My native language also has frequent double negations.

What feels strange about "ne...pas" *to me* is not that it is a
"double negation", but that you *must* put the "...pas" in a position
that looks unnatural to my non-native syntaxometer because it usually
separes object from verb or verb from verb and sometimes it's so far
from the "ne..." ("je ne me laisse pas avoir par mes motions") that I
don't even remember that I must finish my negation brackets (OK,
"circumfix"), so I frequently forget it.

The "circumfixing negation particles" in the WALS page examples you
linked to might be mandatory as well, but I don't speak any of those
languages, so I would probably find them strange too. Remember that
what I'm talking about is that something that sounds unnatural to us
may be learned and spoken naturally with practice. That is my case
with "ne...pas" since I hadn't a negation circumfix program in my
syntaxometer.

It's very common to say

"No sei, no." ("I don't know [no].")

in Brazil. As the first "no" usually is reduced to a fast "num" and
the emphasis moves to the second "no", it might be a kind of
Jespersen cycle as well. What is different from "ne...pas" is that
both "no" are optional, as one can say

"No sei."
"Sei no."
"No, no sei, no."
"Num sei, no."
"N'sei no."

> That's more than 10%. And this number doesn't include languages that
> optionally have double negations, like French.

Well, my discussion above was based on the assumption that both ne and
pas are mandatory. What do you mean by "optional"? Maybe that "ne" can
be omitted?! Or that "pas" isn't really a negation particle? I doubt
you think this, because you seems to analize words semantically rather
than etymologically.

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