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CONLANG  November 2012, Week 3

CONLANG November 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: The Cananite Wedding In Flanders Fields

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 20 Nov 2012 11:11:40 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (138 lines)

On 20/11/2012 00:50, Charles W Brickner wrote:
> -----Original Message----- From: Constructed Languages
> List on Behalf Of David McCann
>
> There is, of course, another factor which we've ignored.
> Jesus wouldn't have spoken Greek on either occasion, but
> Aramaic. John is translating into Greek because

[snip]

> This factor is only relevant if we know that Jesus
> really said this.  Are these the "ipsissima verba" of
> Jesus? Scripture scholars still go round and round about
> which of the words attributed to Jesus by the evangelists
> were really spoken by him.   These words may be John's or
> the community's understanding of something Jesus said or
> did. It is important to remember that the gospels are
> not stenographer's notes.

There were, of course, stenographers in the ancient world;
Cicero used them.  But the notion that stenographers
followed Jesus around is amusing, but implausible.

The words reflect John's and/or the Johannine community's
understanding of what Jesus said.  The fact that John chose
to attribute _gunai_ ("woman") to Jesus both here (chapter
2, verse 4), and in chapter 19, verse 26, is the relevant
issue.  I have given my opinion this is a reference to
Genesis 3:15.  This view is also that of my more eminent
namesake, Raymond Brown, the late Biblical Scholar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_E._Brown

OK - I'm Raymond A. Brown, so not exactly the same   :)
===================================================

On 20/11/2012 02:12, Puey McCleary wrote:
> Thank you for your informative response, Ray.

You're welcome, Puey!

> I’m particularly glad that you wrote a few words about
> the phrase “My hour has not yet come,” since it seems
> that we’ve mostly overlooked that passage in our
> discussion.  I do wonder whether there’s a way to make
> it clear that “my hour” refers to Christ’s death and
> resurrection.  I’ll have to think about this more.

I assume you're referring to your own story.  It's clear
enough from John's Gospel, especially from chapter 14
onwards; and w have the beginning of Christ's 'Priestly
Prayer' of chapter 17: "Father, the hour has come!  Glorify
your Son, that your Son may glorify you ...."

> I’m particularly glad that you’ve touched upon the theme
> that “gúnai” is John’s way of reminding us of Eve, the
> first Mother.  I remember being taught in Sunday school
> and in English class that that was an interpretation of
> the word “woman” in that verse, but I wasn’t sure whether
> this list would bring that idea up.

It certainly has    :)

[snip]
>
> In terms of our world, is it possible to translate
> “Gúnai” in way that can remind the reader of Eve,
> without using a footnote?

IMO it is not possible.  I have stated my view that i think
translation of the scriptures should be as literal as
possible without doing violence to the English language.

> The phrase “daughter of Eve” may sound a bit too Narnian,
> but at least it’s a step in the right direction.

It does sound Narnian - and as Aslan is a thinly disguised
version of the Messiah in that world, it could be
misleading, and ....
======================================================

On 20/11/2012 03:01, Padraic Brown wrote:
> --- On Mon, 11/19/12, Puey McCleary wrote:
[snip]

>> discussion.  I do wonder whether there’s a way to make
>> it clear that “my hour” refers to Christ’s death and
>> resurrection.  I’ll have to think about this more.
>
> I would caution you against having to make every little
> thing the alt-Jesus does "clear".

So would I.

[snip]

>> In terms of our world, is it possible to translate
>> “Gúnai” in way that can remind the reader of Eve,
>> without using a footnote?
>
> Probably not without going the "new Eve" route.

But then you are bringing in concepts that some might find
controversial.  Unless you are clearly translating from a
particularly viewpoint - and you make this is clear to your
reader - the footnote IMO should be more or less:
1. "Woman" was a polite form of address.
2. Some see in this an allusion to Genesis 3:15 and Jesus is
identifying himself as the Offspring who will crush the Serpent.

>> The phrase “daughter of Eve” may sound a bit too
>> Narnian, but at least it’s a step in the right
>> direction.
>
> All women are "daughters of Eve", so I'm not sure that's
> much help,

It doesn't IMO for that very reason.

> though. Has a nice ring to it, though, even if a bit
> Narnian!

It may sound nice but, as I have observed above, connecting
it with Narnia could be confusing.

There is more i can say on this but I will do that off-list
as we could get into 'No Cross' territory.

Also, I'm keeping clear of the Nativity bits (at the moment).

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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