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CONLANG  November 2012, Week 3

CONLANG November 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: conlang testing desiderata

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 19 Nov 2012 07:19:37 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (62 lines)

--- On Mon, 11/19/12, Roger Mills <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> From: Roger Mills <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: [CONLANG] conlang testing desiderata
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Monday, November 19, 2012, 12:15 AM
> --- On Sun, 11/18/12, Logan Kearsley
> <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> On 18 November 2012 17:42, Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > --- On Sun, 11/18/12, Wm Annis <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> For another example, it turns out a sentence like
> "a man helped me at
> >> the store yesterday" is wildly unlikely in natural
> speech.  We don't
> >> expect indefinite nouns to be the subjects of
> transitive verbs,
> >
> > We don't? Yet I hear sentences like this regularly, on
> the news, in everyday conversation, etc, etc. We're always
> hearing how "an armed gunman held up a bank" or "a black SUV
> barreled into people waiting for a bus" or
> > "a top government official was engaged in an affair".
> What's odd about
> > that?
> 
> News isn't exactly "natural speech". 
> ===========================================
> RM Non-concur. The  "Local news" certainly is, at least
> around here!!. But I've heard and used many an indefinite
> noun as subject-- "a dog is running around in my yard; a kid
> fell into my fish pond; a guy knocked on my door and asked
> to use the telephone" etc. ad infinitum.

Exactly! Even if we leave the news out of it, and while definite article 
subjects / topics may be more common, indefinite subject / topic sentences 
are by no means "unnatural" or "wildly unlikely".

> > > Why oughtn't we expect indefinite nouns to be the subjects of trans. 
> > > verbs?
> 
> > Because subjects tend to be topics (which is one reason why we like
> > passive voice), and topics tend to be definite. Conversely,
> > indefinite nouns tend not to be topics, and things that aren't topics
> > tend to not be used as subjects.

So why isn't "a man" sentence topic? From what I understand, the topic of 
a sentence is what we're talking about -- a dog running around the yard, a
kid falling in the fish pond. Doesn't matter whether the topic is a known
quantity (John's Fido) or unknown (an unknown kid). I know some languages 
explicitly encode for topic but I'm not aware that English does. The 
topic is generally identical to the subject, from what I understand, so "a 
man came to the door" and "the man came to the door" both have the same
subject and topic.

Padraic

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