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CONLANG  November 2012, Week 3

CONLANG November 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Logical conlang with easy phonology.

From:

Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 18 Nov 2012 17:09:58 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (72 lines)

On 18 November 2012 10:18, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Logan Kearsley, On 15/11/2012 16:50:
>
>> Human languages *don't do* arbitrary variable bindings
>> (except maybe for that spatial pronoun thing in sign languages, which
>> I'm probably doing a horrible job of referencing accurately).
>
> What are arbitrary variable bindings, such that human languages don't do
> them?

Picking a strictly arbitrary symbol to stand in for a referent
as-needed. Predicate calculus variables have no inherent meaning; as
many as you need are made up as needed and their names can be
interchanged with no consequence for the interpretation of a
proposition. Human languages don't allow the creation of new new
variables at will, nor do they allow arbitrary assignments of variable
symbols to referents; human pronouns/anaphors always have restrictions
that drive the choice of which name to use for which referent. Thus, I
know of no language that has, e.g., two different third-person
pronouns that are completely interchangeable; maybe one is proximate
and the other is obviative, or maybe there's some other distinction,
but changing which one you use for which referent will change the
interpretation of the sentence, unlike in predicate calculus where if
I choose to refer to one thing as x and another thing as y, it makes
no difference if I switch them around or pick completely different
names.

On 18 November 2012 13:40, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Sunday 18 November 2012 18:18:45 And Rosta wrote:
>
>> Logan Kearsley, On 15/11/2012 16:50:
>> [...]
>> > A loglang should be based on logic, yes, but it should also be a
>> > *language*, and allowing arbitrary variable bindings makes the
>> > system seem to me less like a language and more like an obtuse
>> > mathematical notation with a weird pronunciation convention; we might
>> > as well just make up new names for the symbols and speak straight
>> > predicate calculus!
>>
>> Well, the loglang challenge is to come up with something that is as
>> comprehensive and unambiguous as spoken predicate calculus, while being
>> more usable, more ergonomic than that and ideally no less ergonomic than
>> natlangs.
>
> Yes.  I feel that Logan strives for a *naturalistic* loglang,
> which is of course a contradiction in terms (if I have
> misunderstood you, Logan, I apologize).  Loglangs and
> naturalistic conlangs are two different kettles of fish, and
> attempts at reconciling both in a single conlang tend to fall
> in between and end up being neither.  A loglang indeed gets
> quite close to a "spoken predicate calculus", otherwise it is
> not really a loglang.

"Naturalistic loglang" is, perhaps, an accurate explanation, but a
misleading one. And explained it well, but I'll try to put the idea in
my own terms: natural languages do not unambiguously encode logic,
thus a logical language will not be naturalistic. But some means of
encoding logic make use of structures / strategies that are found in
natural languages, and others make use of structures and strategies
that are *not* used in natural languages, and thus making a log*lang*
as opposed to a logic notation
is a matter of picking those structures and strategies that do
actually occur in natural languages, even if no natural language uses
them all at once or in quite the same way. That is an interesting
pursuit, whereas simply trying to represent logic with phonemes with
no other restrictions and no regard for the ability of humans to
process it is a trivial exercise.

-l.

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