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CONLANG  December 2012, Week 1

CONLANG December 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: PRONOUNS & Their Genders

From:

Douglas Koller <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 4 Dec 2012 08:30:12 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (80 lines)

> Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 23:16:37 -0600
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: PRONOUNS & Their Genders
> To: [log in to unmask]
 
> On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 10:48 PM, Douglas Koller
> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> > And "祂", as mentioned, is very limited in scope. You
> > can even find feminine "妳", "ni3", for "you" aimed at females, but that
> > *really* seems limited to treacly love songs from heart throbs to shrieking
> > fans.

> Interesting.  I have also seen 妳, but never use it myself, despite most of
> my Chinese friends being female.  Google Pinyin IME also gives me 袮, which
> is somewhat hilarious.

Perhaps I've seen that? But maybe a false memory since you've just plunked it there. I am not especially known for poring over the Bible and much less so in Chinese, but I really can't recall seeing "祂" or "袮" used in any of "Your Hit Parade" Bible quote favorites (I *have seen* "祂", I just know not where) . So I *just* went to Matthew VI:9-13 to see how "Thy name", "Thy kingdom," etc. were dealt with, and it's "你" (Cue Monty Python: "We are the knights that say '你!'"). Maybe they're used in Chinese hymnals and other extra-Biblical stuff? I just don't know.

> If I may complicate my own analysis a bit -- I never counted it formally,
> but it seems to me that when Chinese friends confused the third person
> pronouns, they tended to use "she" more often, but there could be some
> perceptual bias on my part.  I know that "it" never came into the confusion
> -- so maybe they considered "it" to be something totally different.

> > Inanimate "it" can just be left out of the proceedings altogether:

> > 你喜不喜欢冰淇淋? Do you like ice cream? 喜欢. (I) like (it).
> > 那部电影好看吗?  Is the movie good? 不好看. (It) sucks.

> This isn't limited to inanimates, though:
 
> 你觉得那个人好不好看?
> Do you think that guy/girl is good-looking?
> 不好看
> Not good-looking

Alllllrighty then, let me go at it *this* way. To be sure, you can 'drop' pronouns (I did with 'I' above). But would they ever be there to begin with? Let's compare:

那个人好不好看? Is that guy good-looking?  不好看. (He) is not good-looking.那部电影好不好看?  Is the movie good? 不好看. (It) sucks.

你喜不喜欢郭富城? Do you like Aaron Kwok? 喜欢. (I) like (him).
你喜不喜欢冰淇淋? Do you like ice cream? 喜欢. (I) like (it).

Now context, context, context, of course. But at some point, you *can* say "他不好看." for "He is not good-looking." whereas "它不好看." for "It sucks." (i.e. 'the movie') just doesn't ring true for me. Now since I've been back, I *have* seen a couple of sentences (meaning, like, "2")  with "它" in subject position as inanimate "it", and unfortunately I can't remember the specific examples to make my point, but suffice it to say they sounded in*cred*ibly forced and "Look Ma, my Chinese sentence is just as sophisticated as the big Euro guys' across the street." Now they were produced by native speakers, so I must take them as actual, and grammatically plausible, viable linguistic creations. But as the French, apparently, are likely to lapse spontaneously into Molierian couplets if you stick a camera or microphone in their face, I am seriously obliged to wonder if sentences like these (would) really fly in Chinese "out in the wild".

In the second set, again, at some point, you *can* say "我不喜欢他." for "I don't like him." -- "我不喜欢它." for "I don't like it." (i.e. 'the ice cream')? I'm going to completely throw caution to the wind here, go out on a non-native speaker limb and say "Ptui!" If that's not outright *我不喜欢它, or at the very least ?我不喜欢它, it *oughtta* be and all is lost, the Visigoths are at the gate, between you and I, and je ne sais quoi faire.

> > Demonstratives work, certainly, but I've usually thought of those *more*
> > as doing some of the work of our definite article rather than "it" (I'm not
> > saying they don't, just that I haven't really thought of them that way
> > before).

> Generally, I'm thinking demontrative+quantifier as a stand in for a noun.

As am I. We're actually agreeing here. > > The only place I can think of at present for inanimate "它" as necessary,
> > and it *is* relatively rare, is as dummy object. Like English has dummy
> > subject "it" in "It rains.", Chinese has dummy object "it" in constructions
> > with "把/将" (ba3/jiang1) and transitive and/or resultative verbs.

> > 你把它包起来. Wrap it up. (*something* has to go after "ba", and depending on
> > context, of course, a demonstrative might feel too "heavy").

> This strikes me as weird, but I put it to a Chinese friend and she said
> it's natural for a specific context -- not as a dummy so much as a normal
> pronoun referring to something earlier in the discourse. Well, yes. Here it could be your order of mushu pork, a package, the rock you're using to weigh down the cat you're taking down to the river...

> I will note that
> I have tried to use ta1 for inanimates in spoken Chinese and gotten blank
> looks, so I imagine that the usage is highly restricted, particularly in
> colloquial speech.

Which is why I'm calling it a dummy. As I've argued above, and as your blank Chinese looks at inanimate "ta1" would seem to attest, it wouldn't materialize in a regular sentence. The only reason it rears its ugly head *here* is because "把____包起来" requires *some*thing in the slot. Yes, there's an actual referent, but so what? It wouldn't surface otherwise. I would agree this usage is restricted. *Highly* restricted? And I don't consider "把____包起来" particularly high-falutin style. Beyond scrapping it entirely and rewording, I don't know how it gets much more colloquial.

Kou



 		 	   		  

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