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CONLANG  December 2012, Week 1

CONLANG December 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: a 4 tense system

From:

neo gu <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 3 Dec 2012 00:15:55 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (118 lines)

On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 15:06:05 +0000, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>On 02/12/2012 05:52, Garth Wallace wrote:
>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Nicole Valicia
>> Thompson-Andrews <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> Hi, I know I need to create a tense system. I don't
>>> understand the first tense.
>>
>> The tense system that neo gu is descibing is a little
>> unusual. The aorist is a kind of past tense.
>
>neo gu's _aorist_ is a catch all for any past tense
>(assuming that his 'perfect' is actually a present perfect).
>  That's one of the four meanings of _aorist_ given by Trask
>in "A Dictionary of Grammatical Terms in Linguistics.". thus:
>
>{quote}
>1. A verb form marked for past tense but unmarked for aspect.
>2. A verb form marked for both past tense and perfective aspect.
>3. A verb form marked for perfective tense.
>4. A conventional label used in a highly variable manner
>among specialists in languages to denote some particular
>verb form or set of verb forms.
>
>In other words, _aorist_ can mean whatever you like, as long
>as it applies to verbs     :)
>
>The term was originally used of ancient Greek and is still
>so used in modern Greek.  There it basically has the 3rd of
>Trask's definitions, i.e. "perfective aspect."  But when
>used of an indicative tense, it also has Trask's 2nd
>meaning, i.e. the past perfective tense (e.g. I went, he
>sang, it rained etc.).
>
>As a classicist, I find neo gu's use of _aorist_ to denote
>"it was raining" or "it used to rain" very odd, as those are
>past imperfective uses.  I do not understand why his first
>tense is not simply called "past" or, if he preferred,
>"preterite."

I'll change it to past or maybe preterite. It got named before I knew about the imperfective usage.

>[snip]
>>
>>> Also, what's the limit on tense numbering?
>>
>> If you mean how many tenses a language can have, I'm not
>> sure there's any real limit.
>
>It depends what you mean by "tense".  Unfortunately, this is
>used in two different ways, and not realizing this can (and
>sadly does) cause confusion.
>
>In purely linguistic terms, "tense" denotes _time_
>distinctions.  Some languages, e.g. Chinese, have no tenses;
>others have a simple two tense systems, usually past ~
>non-past (e.g. English), tho a future ~ non-future system is
>occasionally found (e.g. Hua, a language from New Guinea).
>Latin & the Romance languages have a three way tense system:
>past ~ present ~ future.
>
>But it is possible to extend this by, for example,
>distinguishing near past and remote past, or near future and
>remote future.  The New Guinea language _Yimas_ has as many
>as seven tenses (in this strict meaning of tense): four past
>tenses distinguishing varying degrees of remoteness, a
>present, a near future and a remote future.  This is
>arguably about as far as a natural language would want to go
>with 'pure' tense.
>
>BUT ...
>tense is also used in a loose manner to cover the various
>forms that occur in a language which include notions of
>aspect and mood also.  For example, Latin has only three
>tenses in the strict, linguistic sense of the word, but text
>book set out ten tenses in this ,loose sense of the word:
>six indicative tenses and four subjunctive ones.
>
>English has only two tenses in the strict sense of the word
>(past & non-past); but when we learnt English grammar way
>back in the 1950s were were taught 16 tenses!
>
>Certainly in this secondary, loose sense of the word, so
>many variables can be at play that there probably is, as
>Garth wrote, no real limit.
>
> > If you're referring to how
>> he assigned numbers to his tenses, like saying that the
>> "present tense" is #3, that just seems to be something
>> neo gu has done because he thinks the "traditional"
>> names could be misleading.
>
>Certainly his use of _aorist_ could be misleading; but if he
>called his tenses #1...#4 simply _preterite, perfect,
>present, future_ I don't see the problem.
>
>But his statement "If a verb refers just to an action (such
>as when imperfective), tenses 1, 3, and 4 are used ..." a
>bit confusing.  If the verb refers just to the action (or
>situation) then it is perfective; the imperfective aspect is
>concerned with the internal consistency of the action or
>situation. In fact AFAIK his tenses 1 and 4 do not
>distinguish between imperfective & perfective aspect.

I meant the action as independent of the resulting state (i.e. non-perfect, which _could_ be imperfective or not). I guess I'll have to keep working on the explanation.

>(One mustn't of course confuse perfective aspect and the
>so-called 'perfect aspect' of, for example, his tense 2).
>
>--
>Ray
>==================================
>http://www.carolandray.plus.com
>==================================
>Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
>There's none too old to learn.
>[WELSH PROVERB]

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