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CONLANG Home

CONLANG  December 2012, Week 1

CONLANG December 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Hello

From:

Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 3 Dec 2012 09:09:38 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (130 lines)

On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Matthew Merlo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> >@Matthew Merlo:  I find your attitude toward paying other creatives for
> >their specific skills to be somewhat offensive.  Of course, it may be
> >acceptable to someone to work with you with the hope of getting paid out
> of
> >future profits, but to suggest that it's somehow offensive to ask for
> >payment upfront is ludicrous.  Not everyone you want to work with is a
> dear
> >and personal friend who trusts you completely, and many will prefer to be
> >paid upfront for their time invested rather than expect future payment
> that
> >may or may not materialize.  Much of the entertainment industry involves
> >paying creative people for their time: writers, artists, directors,
> actors.
> > Even if I agreed to work for someone without pay out of a hope of being
> >paid out of future projects, I would probably want to have a formal
> >contract to that effect.  The only way I would work totally for free with
> >no pre-determined compensation agreement would be if I was getting
> together
> >with friends to do a non-commercial project "just for fun".
>
> That's not what I said, though i can understand the confusion. It's not
> the payment up front part. It is the part that that is always to be
> expected no matter what the conditions of the work are.
>
> It is alright to expect up front compensation when it is merely a straight
> skill utilization. That would be more paying for you as though you are a
> machine where one puts in input and then gets output mechanistically.
> When it is something more collaborative then that is a different issue and
> ranges, but the value shouldn't be determined by how well you know someone.
> I understand that is how people think, but there you are actually getting
> paid another way.
>
> The reason for much of the entertainment industry working the way it does
> is because it is an INDUSTRY. It is mechanistic and/or between friends.
> Some creativity gets in there, but more often than not they are just
> plugging in pieces into a formula.
>

I don't see a lot of evidence that slaves are more creative than workers
who get paid.  It has nothing to do with skill. It has to do with time, and
my time is valuable.


>
> But let's go ahead and drop all that for a second.
>
> Let's say I randomly had money. However much I would need to hire someone.
> How do you think it is that one would be able to adequately judge a
> conlanger's/artlanger's skill and why do you think that regardless of that
> skill that it is worth $1000. You claim it takes a long time, but clearly a
> simple language could take a very short amount of time and for those who do
> not know enough you could simply create something like a cypher from
> existing language like someone suggested earlier and even showed earlier.
>

The languages you describe are not simple.  In fact, a few are impossible,
such as the goblin language.  Moreover, you're asking people to do things
like "merge" languages, which also does not happen with natural language.
 Not only would a conlanger working on this project have to invent
languages, but he or she would also have to invent new linguistic
processes.


> I know that artists for example all overprice everything they do because
> they think they're worth that because they have heard that's the standard
> rate or what not. I can tell you that if I hired an artist for a comic it
> takes about 8 hours to draw each page and there are 20 pages in a comic,
> which comes out to about 400 hours and depending on minimum wage ~$4000.
> But that's the thing. not all artists take 8 hours to produce a page and
> not all can produce it at the same level. Would you suggest that every
> artist should be paid $4000 per 20 pages? Even if you say yes we then have
> to modify the art situation to the conlang situation which is more like I
> could be hiring someone who can't draw anything but stick figures and knows
> nothing of framing or panel layout. It could be that not only is this
> person incredibly bad that it takes them double the time to produce each
> page. And what's worse is that when it's all said and done I'm not allowed
> to look at the pages, but rather i have to send them out without ever
> looking at them. Do you still think that $4000 is fair?
>

Step back a second and read what you just wrote.  Would *you* want to
collaborate with you on a potentially multi-year project right now?


>
> Let's forget that for a second and let's just go off recognition, should
> it be that I should pay the same amount to someone who is well know as I
> would for someone who isn't? Part of the benefit of fame and getting work
> tied to something is that that might become successful and thus you become
> famous and get more work and are able to charge more. So is it fair for me
> to pay the same price?
>

You can always negotiate that with the individual.  I would not accept
those terms.  A vague promise of "fame" does not adequately compensate me
for my time.  Other people may value their time differently.


>
> It is understandable that people want pay for their work but don't say
> it's fair or reasonable that everyone should get paid just because it might
> be a lot of work that doesn't pay off in the end. That's everything. I also
> don't think the friends thing is a valid place to cut off who you would
> help for free and who you wouldn't. It's certainly a good starting point
> but it fails to achieve in the long run because you are not widening your
> circle of who you can draw on to be paid from or get help from. The funny
> is that people don't realize is money is just an extension of that general
> notion in the first place.
>
> As far as trust is concerned. Yeah. I'm asking you to trust in me. But
> anyone that thinks that is one way is just kidding themselves. In every
> creative endeavor there is trust that the "hired" skill is going to produce
> something that is able to meet the goals of everyone.
>

Good luck with your project.

--Patrick



-- 
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.

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