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CONLANG  December 2012, Week 1

CONLANG December 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Paid contractor vs Artistic collaborator and other nonsense (was Re: Hello Luv!)

From:

Matthew Merlo <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 6 Dec 2012 01:58:06 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (53 lines)

@Padraic Brown 

I have been honest and forthright and I have not tried to hide intentions. What I have gotten from the lot of you is not tangential stuff, which may or may not be interesting, opinions that are superfluous about the posters own preferences and devaluing thing that they think are bad because they are "out of the box" which btw... they always have been just like almost everything is and everything was even for the vaunted JRR Tolkien, William Shakespeare, and the play writes of antiquities and so that is just bad form on you. And I have been "politely" insulted by your president.

The intention to do so may not have been there but the fact of the matter that with people so inept at reading and formulating sentences if that was not your intent it bares the question how well do you even know this thing you study and claim to be skilled at. Especially when your president, the one who speaks from authority and helps establish authority on the subject, does it. It really make you all look silly, foolish, and trust worthy. That's ignoring the fact that he called strawmen arguments good and I'll be nice and do that considering I doubt he's a professor of logic.


But let's just put that aside and look at what you wrote... Specifically, about my analogy between the comic book artist and conlanger. 

#1. Minimum Wage only applies to hour rate jobs. I am being nice using a $10 an hour rate which is roughly minimum wage just to give a figure and also it is a reasonable amount to start at to give context for the average person. Common rates are between $10 and 30. But focusing on this you miss the point and avoid the question.

Why do you think that regardless of skill level what is provided is worth a standard rate? 

This is an important question. If it takes Joe double the time and is inferior quality than Bob should Joe and Bob be paid the same amount? The answer is no, they should not be. Quality is important. Speed in a lot instances is important. The average person thinks that they should be paid the same because that is how their mind works. They see it as essentially the same thing but the quality difference and time difference could be the difference between 100000 sales and 10000 sales. Eventually people get tired of waiting and sometimes the quality of work on one side of a project is so off putting that it makes the rest of it go down hill. They don't consider this and they think it's more like a plumber. A plumber does a job I pay him for parts and labor which takes roughly x amount of time which is standard across the board and I generally don't see the quality of the work and don't really care as long as it works, at least for the time being and doesn't break soon after. 

#2. yes someone does claim it takes a long time. Not looking it up. I think multiple people do. Again the calls into question if you missed this basic statement how can i trust that you can read well and if you can't read well how can i trust your lingual creation skills.

#3. You might say there are no simple languages, but I think there are and they theoretically existed at sometime in the past.

#4. I have direct experience with many artists. Also I am not talk about your "us" because your "us" is not "artists" but conlangers or artlangers where as I am referring to artists as in people who are drawing. This is clear and again, if you can't read this properly it's another indication of incompetent reading, thus, lack of skill.

#5. Getting this far, you have now stopped actually responding to what I have wrote and become hostile. I have not, up until this post made any disparaging remarks about anyone here in terms of skill or ability and been quite clear, clarifying what I meant several times for people who are supposedly skilled in the language arts. What's funny is that all of you agree with what I have said, but then continue on with your nonsense in direct opposition to what I have said once past the point where I've expressed the argument and you agreed, insisting that my clear and explicit intent is not what I have said all along.

anyways let's continue on with what you say anyways

#6. I never said I was paying minimum, but had I you are foolish to look down on it for two reasons...
A) Minimum wage from your perspective would be the standard pay rate from your side of the argument $1000
B) Minimum wage using the $10/hr number and considering most people insist that it takes more than 100 hours to do what I want it would be more than $1000 in total per language v.v

#7. After laying out the full analogy, which apparently you can't read, I re-ask the question; Should everyone be paid the same standard rate? Again the answer to that is No. The only time this isn't the case is in the case of animators who are doing basically the job of a copier and not an artist. Read, non-lead animators or key frame artists. Again, the reason for this is quality and speed and also level of fame of the artist as the work of artists can bring people to a book even if that artist is terrible.

#8. If you find me to be "insulting" you have simply found my honest opinion as offensive... actually no you haven't. You found my analogy which is meant to illustrate why paying a standard rate is not right and not used in any other artistic medium as offensive. ie You found the reality of the world offensive and to that I say get over yourself and deal with it. That has nothing to do with me, it's just how the world is.

#9. From my analogy on how anyone in reality would have to see conlanging as and the risk and trust it involves you get "I don't think you'll be satisfied with anything." read: You take me saying there isn't really any way to know that what you say your skill is it is to mean that I wouldn't be satisfied with whatever you produce. Another lingual problem you have there as well as logic jump issues...

#10. I have never once said I am all that. By your own admission I have admitted that I don't have skill in this area. I haven't said I am a great artist or a great writer or a great game designer or great anything. You'll not even once in all these messages find that I say I am good. What I have said are my opinions on tangential things that don't really matter or that most of you agree on at base but don't like because it means you are fundamentally wrong in your thinking about what you are monetarily worth and for some reason you apply that to self worth. I have said I have no money and I would not work with someone who would not be interested in the project. I also in depth explained that I open to suggestions and such because I recognize that language and culture define each other and yet you've and others have taken that I somehow meant the opposite. I also don't recall if i stated what my commercial intents were directly or what to do with the profits thereof. I don't really think that is all that necessary. I understand why people want them, and why people are so distrustful, but all the same whatever details are more so to be discussed privately.

But if you want to know the absolute truth. I'm charitable and I believe that everyone should get credit for what they do, and shares of whatever profit there is based on their contribution. I am so honest and hate scamming people and charging people for things that are simple that it greatly hinders me in making money real or in games. I absolutely hate it when I see people getting paid for essentially pressing a single button and then sitting around till the thing is done. I would rather tell the person how to do it, show them how to do it, and not get paid than do that. Of course you don't believe that or care about that or think it's some sort of flaw to be like that. No no of course the guy who has been nothing but direct and honest regardless of how much it has hurt his chances of getting the help he wants is a liar. But that's what a liar, and a troll, which you no doubt are thinking, would say.

So in my brief stint here being honest and such what have I seen?
Politely worded Insults
non-helpfulness
cheering on bad arguments
lack of skill
tangential topic taking over
distrust
and twisting what was said from the facts of reality to somehow insulting you. 

And what did I get out of this? Waste of time and being insulted
And what did you all get out of this? Apparently you were taught a lesson in how to treat people unfairly and to speak double speak about thinking pro-bono is perfectly acceptable, but unreasonable, which is a daft thing to think and shows poor reasoning.

Sorry for intruding on your magical kingdom. I'll go back to reality and continue working on my fantasies ^.^

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