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CONLANG  December 2012, Week 1

CONLANG December 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: OT: YAEPT–"T"-ing Off

From:

Matthew Boutilier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 6 Dec 2012 08:51:25 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (65 lines)

well, i dunno, bear in mind how the German 2nd person sing. ending
historically ended in -s (cf. elsewhere in IE) but changed to -st due to
the frequent postposition of, say, OHG *du*/*thu*.

OHG habēs du > habēst du "hast du"

the same thing, of course, happened in pre-Old English and elsewhere in
Germanic (the syntax, with the conjugated verb as the second
constituent in main
clauses, really favors the form "[topicalized object or adverbial] + VERB +
SUBJECT PRONOUN").

and the pronoun here, which lent a /t/ to the verb ending, in OHG
would've begun
either with /θ/ (as in OE) or was already /d/. either way, a voiceless
plosive /t/ it was decidedly not. rather, i think it's fair to argue that it
was devoiced *by* proximity to the /s/. anyway, there are plenty of English
dialects this could've originated in in which the interdental fricatives
are pronounced as stops, aren't there?

i understand your objection (and as for your point 2., i would easily
believe that such analogical things helped the development; every little
bit helps). but, well, it makes sense to me, especially given the historical
example from German.

matt


On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 5:26 AM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Matthew Boutilier
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > personally i think this kind of intrusive final -t (much like initial *s
> > mobile* in Proto Indo European and the change from -s to -st of the
> German *
> > du*-form ending) comes from frequent juxtaposition of such a word ending
> in
> > -s with a word beginning with a dental, which (what with all the TH-
> words)
> > occurs frequently in English. so maybe a lot of things like* across the
> > pond *developed dialectically into *acrost the pond*, and this pattern
> > became more widespread. makes enough sense, right?
>
> I'd disagree, because:
>
> 1. Why should that initial TH, which in most dialects is a very lax
> voiced dental fricative or approximant, become [t], and why only after
> [s], and why only after [s] in a handful of (only closed-class) words?
> I don't know any dialects that change [D] to [t] after [s], such that
> in a subset of those dialects the TH could then be metanalysed.
>
> 2. A better explanation is the analogical extension of the -st
> formative found in various closed groups of words -- prepositions,
> superlative -est, first, last, east, west (-- whereas _north, south_
> share the -th formative with ordinals and with _warmth, depth, width,
> strength_ etc.). _Across_ is a preposition. _Once_ is a preposition[*]
> and a closed-class number word(-form). _Twice_ is a closed-class
> number word-(form).
>
> [*I say this with the proviso that Preposition is a rough-and-ready
> class that an adequate analysis would split.]
>
> --And.
>

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