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CONLANG  December 2012, Week 1

CONLANG December 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Tonal Language

From:

Nikolay Ivankov <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 2 Dec 2012 21:00:49 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (229 lines)

On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> --- On Fri, 11/30/12, Nikolay Ivankov <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > What kind of word am I to use to describe a hollow tube
> > which you can try to whistle in?
>
> Um. Technically, I don't think one "whistles into" a tube -- i think the
> tube disrupts the whistling sound made by the lips.
>
> But as for musical flute-like instruments, there are "edge blown" flutes,
> where you blow across a simple hole in the side or end of the instrument;
> and there are "fipple" flutes, where you blow into a windway, and the air
> is guided over a sharp edge. Generally, "fipple flutes" are called whistles
> as opposed to the other kind.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fipple
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flute
>
> [snip]
> > Oh my, I have to read what I've written at least sometimes.
> > I meant that
> > strings are easier to be torn apart then, say, drums of the
> > same material.
> > Of course, it depends how we play on these instruments.
>
> Sure. Not that drumheads can't be torn, but yes, stings, being thinner,
> are more easily broken.
>
> They're also more easily replaced on the instrument!
>

And was basically always trying to return the discussion to organs and
non-human features.

> > > Ok, a _fixed_ kind of material, maybe I should
> > have
> > > > emphasized it.
> > >
> > > ?? Maybe just stipulate what materials I should use!
> > >
> >
> > Bone. Chitin. Since we are talking of nonhuman features. Or
> > maybe I'm already lost.
>
> Alright -- I would still make a bugle! Take one thigh bone from a strong
> laborer, hollow it out, carve a slight bell into the distal end and a small
> cup-shaped mouthpiece into the proximal end and blow very much like an
> ordinary olifant.
>
> Chitin I think might be too fragile for use as a musical instrument, as
> well as bugs being in general too small to make an instrument fit for a
> human-sized person to use.
>
> Now, your average pixie might very well be able to use a hollowed out
> cricket leg segment as a cornett or a flute or a hunting horn.
>
> > > The same way any other broken bit is repaired -- and
> > sometimes, broken
> > > bits can never be repaired. We already have strings
> > inside us -- tendons --
> > > and sometimes they become detached and never return to
> > normal function.
> > >
> >
> > Fair enough. But at least we don't make them *vibrate* on
> > normal basis.
>
> Well, we do -- the sound is just too low and too quiet for us to hear!
>
> It is true, and I'm sure this is what you meant, that we don't make them
> vibrate *intentionally for means of communication*.
>

Right, thank You for correction.

[snip]

> > > I suspect that the web-like organ Nicole was describing (if
> > > she's described
> > > it sufficiently well and I've understood what she meant
> > -- not at all a
> > > guaranteed thing!) is somewheres down within the
> > respiratory tract and
> > > will be reasonably well protected from external damage.
> > Like any other
> > > mobile membrane in the body, there is a potential for
> > tearing. It's
> > > possible that their bodies would repair the tear;
> > though it's also quite
> > > possible that there will be scar tissue involved and
> > that it won't work
> > > properly afterwards.
> > >
> >
> > I came up with this idea. Suppose we have a "harp" inside
> > their breasts,
> > with strings growing from the base point, like our nails of
> > shark's teeth.
> > So even if a string gets broken, it is replaced over time
> > with a new one
> > that was used to produce higher tones. Problems with this:
> >
> > 1. A string is to be used while growing.
>
> Well, a new string can be in the process of budding from some sort of
> lamellar surface while the old one is still being used. A tear in the old
> string could induce some sort of hormone to be released that would signal
> the new string to become separated along its length (though would have
> to remain attached at either end in order for it to vibrate).
>

Yet for communication it seems we shall need at least several strings, and
that's how I understood Nicole's model.

> 2. We still need to put a tension on the strings, at least
> > periodically.
>
> The lamellar surface can be supported within a structure of skelletal bone,
> modified ribs for example.
>

And stretched by muscles from time to time.

>
> > 2. We still need a bow or plectrum.
>
> That is indeed one very big problem with the system. Another is that the
> sound produced may not be sufficiently loud to be heard outside the body.
>
> On the other hand, you may not need a bow or plectrum at all -- if the
> harp strings are attached to a skeletal framework (i.e., bones) then there
> will also be tendons and muscles involved. Just sound the strings by
> quickly tensing the muscles associated with that string. You can make a
> guitar string or a rubber band sound by pulling on it very quickly as well.
>

Yes, though making and audible sound with that may be even trickier.

> 3. Would it have any other functions? Yet, well, beautiful
> > sound *is* a
> > function by itself, just as moose's horns of peacock's
> > tails.
> > 4. Won't a potential for tearing of something similar to our
> > organs be just
> > smaller? Basically, that was the idea that I wanted to
> > convey to Nicole.
>
> I'd suspect that such strings would not be stressed to the breaking point
> in a living being.
>

Of course not. And they may even also regenerate. Still, the thing is that
everything becomes trickier when it comes to strings. The violin string are
not normally stretched to the point of tearing too, but they do not last
forever also.

Yet, maybe at some point we would even like to stretch the strings to the
limit. For the same reason that makes peacocks look that weirdly beautiful
- the sexual selection by secondary attributes.


> >
> > Another thing may be some stuff like a spider wed, with
> > special organs to produce it. But:
> >
> > 1. We still need a way to fix and put tension on a string.
> > 2. And to expose the torn ones.
>
> I don't think spider silk is strong enough for the purpose.
>

Well, Wikipedia says something like this:

*Most silks, in particular dragline silk, have exceptional mechanical
properties. They exhibit a unique combination of high tensile
strength<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensile_strength>and
extensibility (ductility). This enables a silk fiber to absorb a lot of
energy before breaking (toughness, the area under a stress-strain curve).*

*A frequent mistake made in the mainstream media is to confuse strength and
toughness when comparing silk to other materials. As shown below in detail,
weight for weight, silk is stronger than steel, but not as strong as
Kevlar. Silk is, however, tougher than both.*
So, though I'm not an engineer, I think there could be some stuff *like*
that,"designed" for the purpose. Thicker. Stronger. Stiffer.

[snip]


> > > If the cricket had
> > > evolved an adhesive coating to the leg rather than a
> > > rough edge to the wing, it'd be almost exactly the same, and that
> > > doesn't seem outside of the realm of possibility.
> >
> > I won't completely agree with that. A cricket's instrument
> > seems to be more
> > like a jaw harp, with both parts being rigid. I'd rather
> > classify it as a
> > sort of percussion. But... well.. recalling people playing
> > on a saw with a
> > bow like that
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwR1aMhB6yw
> >
> > Is that what you mean?
>
> A musical saw! No, crickets stridulate (new word there!) by rubbing one
> smooth edged wing against ridges on another wing as Garth says. So they're
> more like natural guiros:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9qVuCIMTag


Yes, I know how it works. But it was Garth's idea of covering cricket's leg
with an adhesive substance - so I was asked if this substance should act
like rosin for the bow and the wing serves as a "saw". A short wikiing
reveals that by instrument classification this one, alongside with jaw
harp, belong to idiophones. Clearly, since the wing is stiff, I'd really
won't count it as a string instrument, though the idea may be close.


>
> > Kolya
>
> Padraic
>
>

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December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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