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CONLANG  December 2012, Week 1

CONLANG December 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Hello

From:

Nikolay Ivankov <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 3 Dec 2012 17:18:22 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (201 lines)

On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 3:36 AM, Matthew Merlo <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > The argument that "I'm putting my time and effort into this so I should
> get paid" is invalid because the person doing the asking is likely putting
> more time and effort into it. To which the next point someone falls is
> "Yeah well I can do what you're doing"
>
> Has anyone on this thread claimed to be as good at writing as you are?
>  Or even as good at writing as they are at conlanging?  if so, I've
> missed it.  You haven't shown us a sample of your writing (I mean your
> fiction writing; it's hard to judge your skill at that from your skill
> at writing emails), so we don't know how good you are.
>
> > The entire world of creative people seems to be rife with mostly these
> types of people.
>
> Perhaps you are reading too much into what Nikolay and others have
> said, based on what other people in other situatiions have said to you
> in the past?  It might help to re-read the thread carefully.
>
> > I don't think it's wrong to ask for money in some cases, but I do think
> it is wrong to go in with the idea that every project should be paid or
> your not going to have anything to do with it. It's not unreasonable to ask
> in general as certain people seem to think, and it's not unreasonable to
> say that I have a project and need your help. If we work on it and it
> becomes something that we can make money from then good we make money from
> it, if not we're in the same boat.
>
> Creative projects of this kind are a long shot.  There's a chance of
> making money from them, but it's slim.  So if we're going to engage in
> such a project -- either solo or in collaboration -- it needs to be a
> labor of love first, with the idea of maybe making money from it down
> the road a nice bonus if it happens, but not devastating if it doesn't
> happen.  I wouldn't put in the time to write every day if I didn't
> enjoy the act of writing itself, just because there's a chance I might
> someday get good enough at it to sell one or more novels; and the same
> goes a fortiori for conlangs, which have smaller potential audiences
> than novels.
>
> And if you're inviting other people to collaborate, you have to get
> them excited about your ideas, fired up about creating one or more
> conlangs for your conworld in this case.  If they don't find your
> conworld ideas exciting enough, then creating languages for that world
> will be just work, not fun -- not a labor of love -- and not,
> therefore, something you can expect them to do for free.
>
> I've collaborated on a conworld before once before -- my brother did
> most of the intial worldbuilding, and I got excited about what he was
> doing and contributed all of the languages and some of the history and
> culture.  But like most of the people who've already posted in the
> thread, I'm busy with my own languages and worlds these days, and a
> proposal for a collaborative project has to clear a high bar to get me
> interested.
>
>
> > But, the main thing that I think money should be based on is more so
> what type of relationship there is between the two. If someone comes along
> and asks you for something done exactly like x, then that person should
> pay. That someone is not giving asking for an equal partnership but rather
> using your skill to do exactly what they want without input from you.
> However if someone comes along and asks if you want to write a story
> together and they have the basic plot laid out with characters and their
> willing to change it based on your input and they have this idea for
> costuming, but nothing exact or or whatever they have their willing to
> listen to why this or that is better... at that point it becomes unfair for
> the artist to ask the writer for payment, but there is equal creative
> control.
>
> I'm not sure "unfair" is the aptest word for it.  Any bargain that two
> people enter with full freedom, maturity, consent and knowledge on
> both sides is arguably fair, whether it involves creative work or not,
> whether money changes hands or not.  And it seems to me that whether
> money ought to change hands in a given case is determined not by
> relative amounts of creative control on the part of the two parties,
> but on whether both of them are having so much fun with the project
> that they don't need payment to keep going with it, or whether, for
> one of them, it's maybe somewhat enjoyable but not fun enough to do
> for free -- not fun enough to compete for their time with all the
> other creative things they  could be doing.
>
> Another factor, both in creative and in pure business deals, that
> affects the nature of the partnership is the partners' different
> estimates of risk.  If one of them thinks the risk is low and there's
> a high chance of the project making a lot of money, they'll want to
> work for a percent of the eventual profits.  If the other thinks the
> risk is high and the chance of making money is low, they may want the
> other partner -- in this case a client or employer, I guess, not
> strictly a partner -- to pay them up front, and let the other person
> have the profits if any eventuate.  If the project itself looks like
> so much fun that it will be worth doing even if there are zero
> profits, of course, then the risk is near zero and both will be
> willing to work (or play) for a percentage of the profits, but mainly
> for the joy of the work itself.
>
> I was one of the peer reviewers for the Dothraki language proposals.
> The diversity of the excellent proposals we saw was enough to prove
> that the conlangers involved had a lot of creative freedom -- the bits
> of Dothraki in the book weren't enough to constrain them too much, and
> we saw wide variation in phonology, morphology, syntax and semantics.
> But none of those conlangers, I think, were big enough fans of George
> R. R. Martin to create a Dothraki purely as a labor of love, as a sort
> of fan art or fanfiction.  And George R. R. Martin, while he may or
> may not be a better writer than you -- as I said, we haven't seen your
> fiction writing so we can't judge -- at least has his work out there
> so people can see it and decide whether they want to create
> fanfiction, or fan art, or fan conlangs.  In your case all we have is
> a sketch of the setting and its history.
>
> I'm not saying that your conworld is uninteresting; I don't know
> enough about it.  I'm just saying that, the way you've described it so
> far, you haven't fired up our imaginations quite enough for anyone to
> jump at the chance to collaborate with you as a labor of love.  Given
> the years of work you're asking us to put in, that doesn't necessarily
> mean your conworld is uninteresting, only that it doesn't (yet) seem
> quite amazingly awesome enough.
>
> Why not take a few days to put your fiction writing skills to work and
> *show* us, rather than *tell* us, how awesome your conworld and the
> stories you want to tell there are?  Large samples of your work would
> be off-topic here, but you could post them elsewhere and point us to
> them, or offer to send them by private email to people who are
> interested.  Just maybe, you can get someone excited enough about it
> to put in years work collaborating with you, not in the distant hope
> of earning some money from the project, but because the collaboration
> itself looks like an amazing amount of fun.
>
> --
> Jim Henry
> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
> http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
>

AMEN!

@Matthew Merlo
From my side, I've been "in the same boat" with a person who I knew for
many years before we started the common project. And, even though I haven't
been so far as to making a review of a conlang for a TV show, I've browsed
through megabytes of amateur fantasy and scifi, each one claiming that
their shadow elves are unique rethinking. I don't claim that Your universe
is inferior by default - I stick to the presumption of innocence, and even
to presumption of geniality, and You can see it in what I've written. It's
possible to create a masterpiece even out of stamps - Cameron's Avatar is
one of my favorite movies. Just how could we know your project is
promising, especially if I see that the history - set aside linguistics -
doesn't generally work the way You describe? People may look prejudiced -
but a good deal of this prejudice is a simple caution.

On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Matthew Merlo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> @Jim Henry
> Not to be rude or crude as I think the first part of your response misses
> that I'm speaking in general about that type of attitude which can be found
> everywhere and in the second while I am in general agreement with there are
> reasons I don't do that.
>
> But at this point I am simply waiting to see what James Kane has to say.
> And I wonder how I should feel about a great majority of you considering I
> am asking for a very specific thing and if you have no interest why say
> anything? In the end it seems to me that you're wasting my time, find
> something enjoyable about not actually helping and pointing out that you're
> not, or waiting for me to go, "I magically have money now! I pay you!"
>
> I have more thoughts on this, but no sense in bringing them up ^.^
>
> I think it's pretty clear what I want and that I will not pay someone for
> it so I don't see any reason for anyone to respond less they are willing to
> work with that. Say what you will, but those things aren't going to change.
>

You see, people, even me myself, are interested in helping You. The
question is: how much, and what for? If You want someone to do *that much*,
and seem not to be going to give a proof of Your skills as a writer and
conworlder, we retreat to the last resort and ask You to show Your
capabilities as a producer.

As for payment - see, I can do sketches on a pure enthusiasm. And as a
director, you are free to dismiss them if the quality is bad and/or it
takes too long. It's fair - we should satisfy each other's expectations.
But if the outcome is sitting in the same boat floating in an unknown
direction anyway - well, we have other boats with closer friends.

Your argument about working for money doesn't work. I see no contradiction
in paying people who are working on what they love. Actually, that's my
main source of income right now. Also, a similar argument: "People who
protect their Motherland fight better than mercenaries" - is used for
decades by Russian military to keep the legalized slavery in the form of a
conscript army, though I see no contradiction between being a patriot and
be paid for that.

Sorry everyone, it's a No Crown here, but, You know, I don't find it normal
when people feel relief when it appears that they are handicapped - and
that's an everyday thing in Russia. Please consider it as a possible
feature for a conculture.

Best luck to everyone!

Kolya

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February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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