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CONLANG  December 2012, Week 1

CONLANG December 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Aspect in punctuals vs. duratives (was Re: proliferation of parts of speech)

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 Dec 2012 11:20:16 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (151 lines)

--- On Sun, 12/2/12, Eric Christopherson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Sorry this took a while! Had to go back and relearn the language a little.

> > Talarian does this a bit: stative verbs are very distinct 
> > morphologically (all roots show the same unvarying ablaut grade, very
> > distinct set of endings, unique set of pronouns) from the active verbs.
> > Among the active verbs, the two broad conjugations are radically
> > different: punctual verbs conjugate for person, number and aspect, 
> > while durative verbs conjugate for person, number and tense.
> 
> Interesting. I was just about to ask what aspects punctuals
> could be conjugated for, but then I found this at <http://bethisad.com/world/languages/talarian_grammar.htm>:
> 
> 7b. Active verbs have two subtypes: the Punctual and
> the Durative; some verbs are inherently one or the other on
> semantic grounds, while a large number are both. The primary
> and historical distinction between these two subtypes is
> that the sense of the Durative verbs is one of time and
> tense, while the sense of the Punctual verbs is one of
> aspect. The Durative has two tenses, past and present; the
> Punctual has two aspects, aorist and habitual.
> 
> I'm just wondering if this distribution (restriction of
> aspect to punctuals only and tense to duratives only) is
> found in natlangs; my gut feeling is that the opposite is
> more likely. I like it, though.

It may not be! I think historically, the distinction and thus the
distribution, comes from certain long-standing cultural perspectives --
areal features -- that certainly predate Talarian and that shaped many
modern languages in the region. The first is that verbs describe "state"
or "action"; and within the latter, action may either "take place within
a temporal continuum" or it may be seen as "taking place within frozen
moments of time". So, with the latter, the temporal continuum ceases to
have meaning -- as the name suggests, a punctual verb's action is like a
snapshot. There's no real time that it's happening in; but there is a 
clear picture of aspect.

A good example might be calamam = sleep. As a stative verb, it means "to
be in the state of sleep" (where we would use the active progressive "to
be sleeping"); as a durative verb, it does in fact translate well as "to
be sleeping" -- the action (or such action as sleeping might involve!) is
ongoing in a temporal sense; as a punctual verb, it means "to fall asleep" 
-- the action is now no longer temporal in nature, but more aspectual. In
this sense, we might read it more like an inceptive.

Some verbs can only be durative in nature: hayesonam = purify. The act of
ritual purification is something that happens in a temporal sense, so it
has no punctual conjugation. (Interesting thing about this verb, is that 
when it takes the acc., it means "purify in incense", while with the voc., 
it means "purify in fire".)

> Continuing:
> 
> > It is increasingly common for the aorist and habitual
> to take on the functions of tense, such that the aorist is
> becomming imbued with a past time sense and the habitual
> with a present time meaning. It is thought that in time the
> Duratives will retain their sense of "action that endures,
> or takes a space of time"; while the Punctuals will lose the
> aorist / habitual distinction in favor of a past and present
> "momentary action" distinction. 

This bit is not terribly accurate anymore. The language has been 
vacillating somewhat, but I think the above is not the final word on the
matter. It represents a direction I was thinking the language might be
taking, but it doesn't seem to have gone that way after all. I think if 
anything, Talarian will simply see more and more verbs simply being 
conjugated in both durative and punctual, even if they anciently did only 
one or the other.

As an example, the verb elemtilam, was originally a durative only that
meant "the stars are shining". It has come to take on a punctual meaning
the last couple centuries or so: "the stars come out at (i.e., at dusk)".

> So, since some verbs can function either as punctual or
> durative, such verbs would end up having (with my guesses
> about the actual interpretation of these tenses):
> 1. a durative present tense (progressive?)
> 2. a durative past tense (imperfect?)

Yes -- though there is not really any aspect intimated. The distinction is
really "it happened in the past" vs. "it happens in the non-past".

> 3. a punctual past tense (simple past?)
> 4. a punctual "present tense" (see below)

3. Yes, the aorist does seem to have something of a past time. It really
is a perfective -- the action is completed without any more specific aspect
indicated.
4. This one really should be a plain old habitual, although it does have
some overtones of presentness. I think that was where that obsolete part
in para. 2b was aiming, at least in some dialects. I think that section
has introduced some confusion where it oughtn't be.

That said, I think your readings would have been valid had the language
gone along the lines described!

> For #4, I can think of a few readings:
> a. something that's *just* happened? And perhaps, extending
> that, a perfect reading based on present state brought about
> by something that's just happened? -- my memory is vague but
> I think this reminds me of some -te verb forms in Japanese

"Just happened" might not be a bad reading at all. Since these verbs don't
show time, the difference between "just happened" and "just happening"
becomes irrelevant.

> b. something's that *imminent*?
> c. Possibly, in the 1st person, a performative?
> 
> I would expect some sort of "perfect" here too... but these
> are just the ruminations of someone who's trying to come to
> terms with aspect in general for quite a while. I'd like to
> hear your thoughts on the senses *you* intend for these
> tenses/aspects, Padraic.

As I have it worked out:

Durative:

cálamati = he sleeps now
a-cálamati = he slept then

Punctual:

cálamti = he falls asleep all the time (habitual)
cecálamti = he fell asleep (perfective, i.e., no longer falling asleep)

The habitual is seen as present in time and the aorist as past in time, 
hence the correctness of your readings above, though there really is no
time proper to either one. I suppose you could translate cálamti as
"he will always fall asleep" and cecálamti as "he has fallen asleep" or
"he shall have fallen asleep".

Other aspects may be formed by adding characteristic stems to the punctual
form:

cálamaççti = he begins to fall sleep (inceptive)
cálamatitti = he is always falling asleep (continual)
cálamasteti = he is often falling asleep (continual)

Talarian doesn't have a future tense, so cálamati serves for future as
well as present. Any other gradations of tense will require adverbs to
complete the meaning, such as "now" or "tomorrow" or the like.

Padraic


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