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CONLANG  December 2012, Week 1

CONLANG December 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Paid contractor vs Artistic collaborator and other nonsense (was Re: Hello Luv!)

From:

Sai <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 6 Dec 2012 00:14:11 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (114 lines)

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 10:58 PM, Matthew Merlo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> And I have been "politely" insulted by your president.

FWIW, just in case: I also speak for myself, not the LCS (of which I
am the *former* president). However, I agree with what David wrote.

I also tried *not* to insult you, and to give polite, practical advice
that you would be able to act on. My apologies if I failed on either
of those.

> Why do you think that regardless of skill level what is provided is worth a standard rate?

FWIW, I don't. Skill level (at ability to fulfill a commercial job)
does vary, and I think it's appropriate for costs to vary
commensurately — and for skilled conlangers who take less time to
charge more per hour (or to charge by the project).

This is certainly true in my own industry (programming); I charge a
lot more than a new college grad could get away with, and even so I'm
still worth more to my clients, because of both speed and quality.
(Lest ye protest about artistic subjectivity, I'd point out that
"quality" in my field is also pretty hard to judge with any clear
objective standard.)

> #3. You might say there are no simple languages, but I think there are and they theoretically existed at sometime in the past.

Your beliefs here disagree with those of linguists who have actually
studied the matter. If you think there's a "simple [natural]
language", name it and we'll show you how you're wrong.

Caveat: there are certainly conlangs (hence my 'natural' stipulation)
that are intentionally made to be simple (eg toki pona, Esperanto), or
that just haven't been fleshed out enough.

> #6. I never said I was paying minimum … Minimum wage … would be the standard pay rate

This seems contradictory. FWIW, I think that a skilled conlanger
deserves a lot higher than minimum wage. Minimum wage is for
*unskilled* labor, i.e. that which basically anyone can be trained to
do within a couple weeks; this is far from it.

> … would be more than $1000 in total per language v.v

AFAICT, you're basically saying that it'd cost more than you're
willing to pay (even if it were paid at minimum wage), and therefore
it's morally wrong?

One point everyone seems to be missing: if you want just a naming
language, it can take a lot less than 100 hours to make an adequate
sketch.

Part of what stimulated a somewhat overzealous response here is that
you came on seemingly demanding a *huge* amount of work — when I think
you probably would be satisfied by something much smaller. It'd help
for you to be more explicit about the low end of what you'd be
satisfied with (in terms of project scope).

> … which apparently you can't read …

Is needlessly insulting.

I realize you feel misunderstood, but please don't escalate like that;
it doesn't help.

> Again, the reason for this is quality and speed and also level of fame of the artist as the work of artists can bring people to a book even if that artist is terrible.

So you're arguing that good conlangers ought to be paid well more than
minimum wage? :-)

> #8. If you find me to be "insulting" you have simply found my honest opinion as offensive... actually no you haven't. You found my analogy which is meant to illustrate why paying a standard rate is not right and not used in any other artistic medium as offensive. ie You found the reality of the world offensive and to that I say get over yourself and deal with it. That has nothing to do with me, it's just how the world is.

I think you've both been pretty insulting.

However, I don't think anyone here (including Padraic) *has* been
arguing that conlanging ought to be paid at a standard rate. I don't
know why you think so. Rather, Padraic took offense at understanding
you to be intending to pay only minimum wage (or none at all).

It would probably help if you said clearly what you think such work
*is* worth (to you), rather than using minimum wage as an example,
since we all seem to agree that minimum wage is not an appropriate
anchor. Either on an hourly or project basis.

> … there isn't really any way to know that what you say your skill is …

FWIW, this is part of what the LCS does (for a large enough project) —
provide expert review, so that you don't *have* to worry about
assessing an individual conlanger's skill.

(Again, caveat for the rest of y'all: we don't believe in reviewing
personal skill, and we're not interested in doing so; your personal
conlanging can only be judged by yourself, not a third party, without
you yourself specifying criteria for judgement. This is strictly
limited to review for the purposes of satisfying a given client's
needs, for which there do exist reasonable criteria.)

> I also don't recall if i stated what my commercial intents were directly or what to do with the profits thereof. I don't really think that is all that necessary.

I disagree. If you're asking someone to essentially invest their own
time, without pay, into a commercial project from which you intend to
profit, then you should be offering them a fair share of that profit
along with a reason to believe that you'll make any.

If you're *not* aiming to make something commercial, you really should
say so explicitly — and should flesh out why your proposed project is
awesome enough that people should work on it rather than whatever else
they were going to do in their spare time. I gave you at least one
example of a project that *did* manage to do so.

Just don't expect people to volunteer on a for-profit venture. That's
fundamentally unfair.

- Sai

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