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CONLANG  December 2012, Week 1

CONLANG December 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Paid contractor vs Artistic collaborator and other nonsense (was Re: Hello Luv!)

From:

George Corley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 6 Dec 2012 17:27:09 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (149 lines)

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Matthew Merlo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>
> Another thing to keep in mind though when you are using the art analogy is
> that artistry is more accepted as valuable and to apply the analogy
> absolutely correctly you have to assume that everyone else outside of your
> very small community can't tell the difference between a stick man and the
> mona lisa. And just to rough up your ego just a little bit more. That is
> not something that could be claimed by any other "art" other than a very
> specific art who's name escapes me at the moment, and most people consider
> the artists in that category pompous, arrogant, scams, and not art at all.
> If draw people can most see the difference between a stick figure and
> liefeld and him vs Jim Lee and Jim Lee vs Rembrandt and Rembrandt vs
> DaVinci. If you take writing even though they don't know the mechanics the
> differences in style and whether it is at least competent writing or not
> can be seen and you can to some degree separate the levels into categories.
> Going to programming as someone brought up, which people don't generally
> think of art, the end user even though they don't understand it in most
> cases can tell the difference between a shoddy messy programmer/program,
> and a good one in 2 ways...looking at it which generally gives it away and
> running the program which tends to have problems if its bad. Conlanging on
> the other hand...I can make stuff up off the top my head, as can any child,
> and to your average viewers there is very little if any difference at all.



> So the situation is more akin to me being blind and most of my audience
> being blind and only a few people outside of street artists can actually
> see and asking a street artist to draw me a sunset. The only word that I
> have that you drew a good sunset is your word and the word of, more than
> likely, other street artists.
>

There are certain levels at which that doesn't work out.  I think that the
analogy of a stick-man here might be on-the-spot glossolalia by the actors
-- which, while not as obvious as a stick figure, could probably be spotted
fairly quickly by observant audience members (for instance, there are
highly repetitive elements, and there will be no relationship between what
is spoken and the subtitles).  As things get more sophisticated, it does
get to be a more academic distinction, though.

But what exactly is a conlanger.  If we are working for (or "with") another
creator or creative project, we aren't just artists, but linguistics
consultants.  I'm not sure there is a perfect analogy to be had.


> The problem here is the absurdity of the situation. Why would blind people
> want a sunset drawn?
> But it is also absurd of the street artists to be expecting that people
> will come around and ask to have sunsets drawn in the first place.
>
> Of course that's where the analogy breaks down from being absurd yet
> possible to impossible which is that I am saying that if you want more
> people to come ask you to draw sunsets then you should draw sunsets for
> free and as often as you can because something I and others are doing could
> very well help to make people not blind and thus it is best for you and
> your community that you do this at least for right now.


Here we have an issue of misunderstanding.  You assume that we all are
interested in doing paid conlanging work, and that we just think we are
lazy and waiting for people to come to us rather than getting out there and
seeking jobs.  Many people here have no interest whatsoever in conlanging
for anyone but themselves, and I think most of the rest feel the same way
as me -- it would be wonderful to get a paid conlanging gig, but that's not
what I'm actively seeking at the moment -- partly because I know that
demand for such work is very low.


> You can say that you don't believe because you not seen a cure from me,
> but you can't say that what I am saying is illogical or wrong.
>

Did I say you were illogical or wrong?  I suppose disagreeing with you is
implicitly saying that you are wrong.  Your logic, it seems, is mostly
sound, but many of your assumptions are, in my opinion, wrong.


> Btw, you stress "work for" when I always have said "work with" you are
> doing this knowing there is a difference and given that I have shown to
> choose my words to try to represent what i mean faithfully. It is wrong of
> you to try to switch words like that. This switch in itself shows that you
> understand what I'm saying and are purposely twisting my words which only
> shows malice and willful ignorance. Given that, I have a lot worse words
> that I would say of you, and your type of thinking, but I I'm not going to
> say them, but let me be clear on this point. If you paid me I wouldn't let
> you and people like you anywhere near anything I was working on or people
> that I know. And if anyone did ever ask me about conlanging and for some
> reason I said anything positive about this place. I would make sure to
> point out that you, not the rest of this community, should never be
> tolerated. You and others probably think that's a bit much, but I view
> willfully ignorant people, such as you have shown yourself to be, as the
> main cause of all ills on the earth and I do not tolerate them. I am simply
> civil and intelligent enough to realize that even the most backward
> thoughts need uttering to show how wrong they are.
>

Do not presume that any small substitution of words constitutes a
deliberate twisting of meaning.  In some cases it is, but in this case it
is not.  Also, do not presume to know absolutely the contents of my mind.
 I apologize for stressing something that is not what you present.  From
the analogies you have presented and various other cues, I had essentially
been thinking of your proposal as essentially a bit of contract work, which
you are asking people to do for free or for some negotiated percentage of
future profits.

Even assuming this is an equal collaboration, it is still the case that the
conlanger working with you would be giving up creative freedom.  Perhaps
every single point would be negotiated, including lots of the culture and
worldbuilding info, so it still stands that the collaboration can be less
enjoyable than working on one's own projects individually.  It can also be
a better experience, but from your attitude in this thread I can say that
*I personally* would not like to work with you in any capacity.  Much of
what you have said in this thread has indicated to me that you don't much
like conlangers, and that you fundamentally don't understand our
motivations.


> As to the simple languages. you don't call them languages. That's nice.
> Missing the point of language, but you go ahead and believe what you will.


It's an issue of technical definitions.  In linguistics, a "language"
necessarily has a certain level of complexity and flexibility that so far
has only been observed in humans.  Some of the ideas on this are listed
here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_features_of_language (though
certain of those features may be misleading IMO -- sign languages are still
languages).  This is not a matter of what people believe, it's a matter of
knowing what we are talking about.  If, among the "languages" that you want
you list a set of animal calls or something like bird song, then that's
fine -- but it's not something that people here do.  Now, it is possible to
make a language that is deliberately simpler than natural languages in some
specific way, but for it to (technically speaking) still be called a
language, it will most certainly not be anything analogous to currently
known animal communication.

You can dismiss these technicalities, but as I said above, if you ask a
conlanger to work with you, we're not just an artist but also a linguistics
consultant.  Based on statements you've made, I would guess that most of
the people on this list know more about linguistics than you do.  So when
we tell you that there are no animal languages, or that what you think of
as a "simple language" doesn't exist naturally, or that your Goblin
language is grossly unrealistic and likely impossible, we are trying to
give you useful information.  You are free to hand-wave away any of those
complications away, just as so many sci-fi shows and movies hand-wave away
the fact that sound doesn't carry audibly in space.  That doesn't mean that
the fact is not true, or that physicists are silly for saying you're wrong
about sound in space.

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February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
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August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
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July 2005, Week 3
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July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
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June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
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May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
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May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
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April 2004, Week 1
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March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
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January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
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August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
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July 1999, Week 5
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July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
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May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
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September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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