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CONLANG  December 2012, Week 1

CONLANG December 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Paid contractor vs Artistic collaborator and other nonsense (was Re: Hello Luv!)

From:

George Corley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 6 Dec 2012 19:28:23 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (169 lines)

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Matthew Merlo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>
> You mistake having an opinion and not tolerating ignorance, dishonesty,
> insults. and letting his words be twisted, with having respect for the
> skill itself. You could be superman and do tons of great things. That
> doesn't mean that what you say or why you do something is respectable. The
> sheer fact that I'm here at all and asking for such help shows that you are
> wrong because someone who didn't care wouldn't bother with seeking you out
> and they definitely wouldn't put up with the amount of stuff i've put up
> with from you. Nor would they respond or call you out on any of it.
>

If you refuse to tolerate my "ignorance", then why should I tolerate your
own willful ignorance


> No I did not say that I think that all of you are interesting in paid
> work. However that is what we are talking about here. Keep on topic. David
> presented the argument that people shouldn't work for free and then said
> the more of it out there the more popular it gets and thus more work and
> the second part is true, but does not follow from the first. While should
> is still up for debate, should not is antithetical to that goal.
>

I'm not exactly certain what you are saying.  If you are saying that we
should produce more work for free in hopes that we will grow the popularity
of conlanging and thus generate more paid jobs, I feel like kind of like a
musician who's been asked to play at a party for "exposure".  Sure, I'll
consider creating conlangs for my friends, and I produce some for myself as
a hobby.  I can only speak for myself as far as taking you up on your
collaboration effort, and I've already stated my points on that.


> If people want to work on their own worlds and not anyone elses' I
> understand, but I am not talk to them and why would I? They, and, ifyou are
> one these people, you, are not who I am talking to and you knowing this are
> must have some other motivation for confronting me and while there are many
> reasons that could be none are positive so I wouldn't be proud of myself if
> i were you.
>

I'm confronting you about incorrect statements you have made about language
and some general attempt to suss out exactly what you want.  If you don't
want to learn from us, then why do you want to work with us.  I really feel
like you want a conlanger to be your monkey and do what you say, rather
than being an equal partner and a source of expertise on something you
admittedly don't know much about.


> I do not consider "any" small change of wording to be deliberate, however,
> doing it constantly and calling attention to it you make known it is
> deliberate and as it is deliberate it becomes obvious that you are trying
> to make it sound like I am saying something I am not. I have said with
> every single time. Considering, I have also described the relationship I am
> proposing and I am not offering money usage of the word for is wrong.
> Perhaps you are hung up on trying to get it twisted to for because for
> implies monetary exchange and hierarchical relationship. You make it even
> more clear your intent to twist what I say by the beginning of your next
> paragraph, "Even assuming this is an equal collaboration..." which shows
> that I'm actually right in what I'm saying about you and your deliberate
> twisting.
>

You constantly say it will be a collaboration, and that any conlanger would
be working "with" you, but you bat away all the conlang-related advice we
give.  Any attempt to correct you on misconceptions about linguistics you
scoff at as if you think you really know better than us.


> As to the points raised in that paragraph. What is agreed upon does not
> concern you and is only of concern to me and whoever I work with, but more
> importantly I have already explained what I am looking for and what
> "limitations" might be. Those limitations are what occur in every design.
> Certain elements dictate certain other elements and thus limit them. Anyone
> with any sense of continuity already knows thus and again I wouldn't want
> to work with someone who doesn't understand this or wouldn't be willing to
> work with considering those elements.
>

Let's see ... you are defining the culture of each of these races, at least
to some extent, correct?  Since culture affects language quite heavily,
that will be a constraint on the conlanger.  You also make some very
specific claims about your languages, which will serve as constraints on
the construction of the language.  In one case, you make a claim about a
language that will make it almost impossible to construct.  Maybe you will
give on these things, and I really hope you'd be willing to, but your
attitude


> As to what is language... the article you present as the qualities that
> language must have and then you say quickly after they don't is idiotic.


That article is talking about some foundational philisophical work that
shapes modern linguistics.  That a single bullet point on that list is
misleading and I point it out is such does not wholly invalidate it.  We do
not throw out evolution because a few of Darwin wasn't right about how
genetics works (and he wasn't).

Linguistics is a science, and science is messy.


> I'm not call you or the writer idiots, but that article is idiotic and is
> a product of the thinking that is no longer considered proper when
> discussing things. It hits the nail on the head with "Language is about
> communication" which is funnily 9 on the list. He then goes on to go "Well
> how do humans around me communicate." That's a fallacy (don't know which
> one but i know it is one) What he is talking about is Human Language which
> is a subset of Animal Language which is a subset of Language.


I am a graduate student in linguistics at the University of
Wisconsin-Madison, and have been studying linguistics more informally for
years.  There are people on this list with better credentials -- both
formal in that we have a few with completed degrees on the list, and
informal in that they've been looking at this stuff for a lot longer than I
have -- that will probably agree with me that animal communication and
human language are two fundamentally different things.  Indeed, there is a
fair bit of non-linguistic communication among humans -- we have
pheremones, gestures and facial expressions (outside of their linguistic
uses in signed language), and all sorts of social signaling in the clothes
we wear, etc.  If you are going to work with someone on a conlang who knows
much about linguistics, you are going to have to accept that there is a
formal, technical definition of language.


> This very same thing happened in many other fields where once upon a time
> people were like "This is what this is and this how we can tell" and then
> they found something that was that thing and didn't fit their list of check
> offs and or they found things that DID meet their list of check offs but
> noone in their right mind would call it that.
>

I did mention that we are talking about technical definitions here.  Saying
you know better than linguists what a language is is a little like being
one of those people who insist to astronomers that Pluto is a planet.
 People may still call it that, but astronomers have devised a *technical*
definition of "planet" that happens to exclude it -- specifically  IIRC: "a
body orbiting a star that is large enough to clear similarly-sized objects
from its orbit, but not large enough to initiate fusion at its core."

The definition of "language" can be approached in different ways, but in
the current circumstances I would consider it thus: "A system of
communication using a number of arbitrary symbols in a systematic way to
construct infinite possible meanings."  (Others might argue with me on
details, but that's the general gist of it.)


> In the end, if it is a human centric line of thinking or what we know line
> of thinking then it is most likely a bad definition and an inaccurate line
> of thinking.
>

We may be wrong in our thinking about language, but unless I see evidence
to the contrary, I am going to stick with the established view that other
linguists have already tested and agreed upon.  That's how science works.

Since I seem to have gotten myself into a flamewar I'm going to extricate
myself in the only way I've found works for me -- this is my final post in
reply to you.  Feel free to have the last word or to fight with other
people if you must.

One last thought:
I'm almost certain that I will regret this, and that I'm probably breaking
some rule on this list, but I'm rather angry, so:

Mr Merlo, you are a troll.  Please kindly fuck off.

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March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
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February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 4
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 3
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December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 3
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September 2004, Week 3
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August 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 3
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January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
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October 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 1
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February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 1
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
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