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CONLANG  December 2012, Week 4

CONLANG December 2012, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Soliciting comments on SympolTalk, an unconventional language

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 28 Dec 2012 19:12:31 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (120 lines)

--- On Fri, 12/28/12, Sai <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> From: Sai <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Soliciting comments on SympolTalk, an unconventional language
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Friday, December 28, 2012, 7:37 PM
> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 4:32 PM,
> Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >> Imprecision
> >> Unlike most conlangs, SympolTalk is not intended to
> offer
> >> precision in expression; vagueness is a design
> desideratum.
> >
> > I think perhaps you might be confusing "most conlangs"
> with "most
> > engelangs" or "most loglangs". Most conlangs hereabouts
> are artistic and
> > naturalistic in nature, and thus seek, quite to the
> contrary, to either
> > mimic the imprecision and the vagueness of natural
> language or else to
> > outdo it as best as may be done.
> 
> As one of the token engelangers on list: most but not all.

Indeed! We had that whole Guacamole Quadrangle discussion a few months back
with the long and short of it being everyone's sort of in the middle
somewhere. I.e., plenty of room for engelangs that slide a bit towards
the other ends of the continuinuum.

> >> Core visual concepts
> >> In SympolTalk, there are only six classes of words:
> verbs,
> >> characters, stages, props, personal traits, and
> modifiers.
> >
> > In other words, two fundamentals: words of substance
> and words of relation
> > (names and ligands!). This largely describes at least
> one of my conlangs.
> 
> FWIW, UNLWS has no word classes at all; all glyphs are
> predicates.

Certainly makes writing POS chapters easy! "Chap. 1 -- Words" ;)))

> > So, essentially, color is SympolTalk morphology. I like
> the basic idea,
> > and may have to find a place for something like this in
> a conlang some time.
> 
> Again from an UNLWS perspective: I think that SympolTalk's
> approach to color is unwise, for a couple reasons.
> 
> 1. Generally one should not contrast colors that a
> significant portion
> of the population is color blind to (eg red-green).

Certainly good advice for any kind of computer / graphics design. I get
the feeling that he's aware of that problem (though of course, I could be
wrong!)

> 2. Humans cannot reliably *distinguish* nearly as many
> colors as we can depict. 

I think we can reliably distinguish (pace any colorblind folks!) the
relatively small number of colors he's using for the project.

I did an interesting hue discrimination quiz the other day -- a "put all
these hue squares in the right order" deal. Did a lot better than I thought
I would, considering that I didn't have names for a single one of those
colors. Well, "purplish", "mud" and "glas" figured prominently!

> Color gradients are only barely usable even in a
> direct
> side-by-side contrastive manner; they certainly aren't
> things where
> one can recognize which of even hundreds, let alone millions
> of colors is represented.

Right. I do get the feeling that his project doesn't require one to tell
apart hundreds of millions of colors!

> As such, color is useful perhaps for iconic fidelity, but if
> the
> intent is to use it *grammatically*, it really does have to
> be
> discretized (or made into discretized ranges, which range is
> then tied to some scalar attribute).
> 
> Besides which, as a design question, spare use of color is
> generally wise. 

I'd agree with that; though I must say that if they used color 
grammatically in any language of the Eastlands in the World, garish colors
and frightening contrasts would the order of the day!

> Too much color is overwhelming and totally screws up any ability
> to use color for emphasis — and is a flag for copping out
> from doing better design work.
> 
> I'd strongly recommend reading Tufte's books, including
> Visual Display
> of Quantitative Information and Envisioning Information, for
> more on the subject.
> 
> 
> Of course, SympolTalk's design desiderata are also fairly
> different from UNLWS', so some of the above may simply not be
> relevant.

Undoubtedly!

> - Sai

Padraic
 

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