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CONLANG  December 2012, Week 4

CONLANG December 2012, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Soliciting comments on SympolTalk, an unconventional language

From:

Mathieu Roy <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 28 Dec 2012 10:19:07 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (184 lines)

I like the idea of the language. It's not a very constructive comment, but
I'm looking forward to your project :)

Patrick, do you have a link to a paper or something that explains what is a
language? Because when I look in a dictionary for example (which I know
isn't the best source) it seems that the definition of language isn't the
same as you gave: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/primitive+?s=t. In
fact, "your" definition is somewhat counterintuitive for me.
	
And what do you mean by "primitive" and why aren't there any "primitive
grammar" and why is it "almost borderline offensive to suggest that there
is"

I am not a linguist, but I'm curious about those things and would like to
know more, so if you don't mind giving me a quick respond, that would be
appreciated. Thanks!

Mathieu

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Constructed Languages List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] De la
part de Patrick Dunn
Envoyé : vendredi 28 décembre 2012 05:30
À : [log in to unmask]
Objet : Re: Soliciting comments on SympolTalk, an unconventional language

I'm responding as a linguist here, so please take that into account and
don't think I'm being excessively critical.

1.  What you describe isn't technically a language.  That's not a flaw, and
it doesn't mean you need to stop *calling* it a language, but a linguist
wouldn't consider this a full language, because it can't communicate about
any idea and isn't precise enough to express all possible thoughts, which
languages are.  That's not a flaw, necessarily, because have other such
symbol systems for specific purposes and they're quite useful (Yes, you can
talk about general relativity in !Xhosa just as you can in English -- but
it's easier in "mathematics," which isn't a language).

2.  There is no such thing as a primitive grammar.  To some linguists, it's
almost borderline offensive to suggest that there is.

3.  I think this is a really cool idea and I look forward to seeing how it
develops.

--Patrick


On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 10:24 PM, Chris Crawford
<[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> SympolTalk
>
> This is a narrow-purpose conlang intended to serve as a language of 
> interaction in computer-generated interactive storytelling. It is a 
> logographic language using large (64-pixel) glyphs rendered in 24-bit 
> color. Sentences in SympolTalk are displayed in a two-dimensional
structure.
>
> Imprecision
> Unlike most conlangs, SympolTalk is not intended to offer precision in 
> expression; vagueness is a design desideratum. This unconventional 
> feature is derived from an appreciation of the facility of the human 
> mind for imposing narrative structure onto sequences of events. Just 
> as we impose imagery onto Rorschach blots, or recognize clouds to be 
> shaped as ships or birds, our minds automatically assemble any 
> sequence of events into a story. Experiments with children have 
> demonstrated that they will describe a purely physical sequence of 
> events in narrative terms, imbuing inanimate objects with purpose and
personality.
>
> Artists have long known that what is unspoken or undisplayed can be 
> just as important as what is spoken or displayed. The shadow is just 
> as important to the image as the light. The imagination can readily 
> fill in what is not available, and ofttimes what is imagined is more 
> vivid than what is real.
>
> SympolTalk is designed with these concepts in mind. Instead of having 
> a plenitude of words for punch, slap, hit, kick, bash, clout, brain, 
> clobber, and so on, we need have only two words: one word for "apply 
> power/violence to" and a second word indicating the medium of such 
> application: fist, gun, knife, etc.
>
> Vocabulary
> SympolTalk will be used solely in interactive storytelling on computers.
> There is no need for it to express ideas about mathematics, 
> philosophy, mechanics, or science. Instead, its knowledge domain is 
> confined to dramatically significant interpersonal interactions. This 
> vastly simplifies the design problems of the language. In particular, 
> it will not address spatial relationships, with which game designers are
obsessed.
>
> Core visual concepts
> In SympolTalk, there are only six classes of words: verbs, characters, 
> stages, props, personal traits, and modifiers. Each class has its own 
> distinctive color: green for verbs, light blue for characters, yellow 
> for stages, magenta for props, purple for personal traits, and brown 
> for modifiers. Note how the standard linguistic class 'noun' has been 
> broken into three components: characters, stages, and props. These are 
> the only forms of nouns needed for SympolTalk. Conversely, adverbs and 
> adjectives have been merged into a single category called 'modifiers', 
> although personal traits form a separate class.
>
> You can see a preliminary representation of SympolTalk at 
> www.erasmatazz.com/Sample.png
>
> A Sympoltalk glyph consists of an image repesenting the concept 
> embedded in a circle whose background color denotes the class of word. 
> Thus, a tombstone in a yellow circle refers to a grave; the same 
> tombstone in a green circle indicates killing or dying; the same 
> tombstone in a brown circle would mean "fatal" or "mortally".
>
> Several other basic images extend the utility of each glyph. A brown 
> circle containing the standard negation symbol (circle with diagonal 
> bar) is a modifier that means "nothing" or "zero" or "not"; a pair of 
> curled arrows connected head-to-tail indicates "reversal". Thus, a 
> modifier glyph meaning "beautiful" can be reversed in meaning to 
> "ugly" by attaching the "reversal" glyph to it. Magnitude of modifiers 
> can be shown with a simple five-step iconic scale.
>
> Emotions
> Fundamental to SympolTalk is the division of emotional relationships 
> into three fundamental dimensions: affection, power, and trust. Just 
> as the division of the color spectrum into discrete colors is an 
> arbitrary cultural artifact, the division of the spectrum of human 
> relationships into discrete terms is also arbitrary. I have learned, 
> through much trial and error, that in computational terms the three 
> dimensions I mention above do a pretty good job of covering human
relationships.
>
> Those three relationship concepts are expressed in SympolTalk with 
> something like the radicals used in some writing systems. A heart 
> indicates affection, a spiky explosion indicates power, and a square
indicates trust.
> Thus, a glyph containing a face with a speech bubble indicates a 
> speech act; that speech act can be either nice (with a heart), 
> domineering (with an explosion) or sincere (with a square).
>
> Similarly, a speech act can contain an exclamation point to indicate 
> imperative mood, a question mark to indicate interrogative mood, or a 
> period to indicate declarative mood.
>
> Grammar
> The grammar of SympolTalk is so simple as to be primitive. There are 
> no variations in words; no tense, mood, case, number, or gender. The 
> only grammatical indicator is a small arrow connecting one glyph to
another.
> That arrow indicates either the sentence order (SVO) or the modulation 
> of one word by another.
>
> Because SympolTalk is implemented on a computer, it functions in ways 
> unavailable to conventional conlangs. For example, tooltips are always 
> available to provide a quick approximate translation of a glyph in 
> natural language. A dictionary can always be provided to the uncertain
user.
>
> Inverse parser
> Even more radical is the use of an inverse parser. In conventional 
> languages, the speaker must memorize all the words in the language, 
> their meanings and usages. In SympolTalk, the user never has the 
> opportunity to put words together arbitrarily. Every verb requires a 
> considerable amount of computer code that specifies exactly how that 
> verb functions in the linguistic universe of SympolTalk. This code 
> also specifies the responses available to the user. Thus, a user
constructs a sentence glyph by glyph.
> At each juncture, the software determines which words could 
> meaningfully be used at that point in the sentence, and the acceptable 
> words are presented to the user as a menu. A more complete description 
> of this system is accessible at www.storytron.com.
>
> This constitutes only a preliminary description of the SympolTalk 
> language system; the conlang is undergoing continuing development. I 
> solicit questions and comments from readers.




--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr
_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.

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December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
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October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 1
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June 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
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August 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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