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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 1

CONLANG January 2013, Week 1

Subject:

Simple Database Software

From:

Nissa Annakindt <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 3 Jan 2013 09:31:02 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (1541 lines)

Hi, I'm new to the group and I have a question for those who, unlike me,
actually know what they are doing. Some years ago, I was working on a
dictionary for a conlang (Amerysk) and I used a Microsoft database software
that came free with my computer. I put the Amerysk words in one column and
their English equivalents in the next (I also had columns for German and
Esperanto). The software was able to export the database, or parts thereof,
as a plain text document for my word processor, which I turned into HTML
documents and posted online.

I could do a document with Amerysk first and English second, it would
alphabetize and I'd have a text document that was an Amerysk/English
dictionary. I did another which was the reverse and I had an alphabetized
English-Amerysk dictionary.

That was several computers ago, and they don't give out that Microsoft
database with computers anymore. I tried the database software in my Open
Office suite, but that had 2 flaws--- the resulting document was not plain
text but a table, plus it could only be exported as a PDF which was no use.

I was wondering if there were any software products out there that would do
what my old software used to. Ideally, free or cheap software. I'm really
hoping for some way to do this as in addition to Amerysk, I am transcribing
a short dictionary from a 1868 auxlang, Universalglot, and if I transcribe
it into a database, I can generate two-way dictionaries. Any suggestions
will be appreciated.

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 11:00 PM, CONLANG automatic digest system <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> There are 19 messages totaling 1521 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. A complete list of attitudinals/evidentials/discursives?
> 2. USAGE: Can't we say that a language is always related to a "people"?
> (6)
> 3. Dec29, an XVOS idea (longish)
> 4. If (2)
> 5. A New Language (2)
> 6. A New Language (Take II)
> 7. Medium-length translation text? (4)
> 8. New 30-Day Conlang - last minute waffling
> 9. META: Conlang-L FAQ
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 02:26:45 -0500
> From: Gleki Arxokuna <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: A complete list of attitudinals/evidentials/discursives?
>
> Has anyone seen a comparison of attitudinals/evidentials/discursives in
> different languages?
> I'd love to see a summary table of them.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:29:16 +0100
> From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: USAGE: Can't we say that a language is always related to a
> "people"?
>
> I'm not into engelamging but I'd say language is a sufficiently significant
> and important part of human culture and behavior to merit its own class
> unless you're under constraint as to the number of classes. And unless
> words of one class can't be derived from words from another class you can
> then freely derive names of languages, peoples and places from each other
> in whichever direction suitable. IIUC that's how it works in Bantu
> languages. The names of languages, peoples and places are often derived
> from the same root with a change of noun class, without it always being
> possible or relevant to tease out which is 'primary'. You can stay within
> the Romance languages and find all three: _Italian_ as glottonym and
> ethnonym is derived from the name of the country. _France_ and _French_ are
> derived from the name of just one of the peoples who blended together into
> the modern people. _Occitania_ OTOH is named after the language, and I
> daresay there is no agreed-upon name of the people in that case!
>
> Also the (politics of) relations between (names of) peoples languages and
> places can be very complicated. To take one example: while _Hindi_ is
> derived from the Persian name of India very many people would be very
> pissed off if you suggested that Hindi is *the* language of India. The only
> one of the many languages of India which comes close to having a reasonable
> claim of being the language of all India is Sanskrit, but the Sanskrit name
> of the country (Bharatavarsha) and the people (Bharatiya) are derived from
> another root entirely, and to rename either after the other would be
> absurd. BTW _sa.msk,rta bhaa.sa_ has a reasonable claim to be translated as
> 'The Conlang'!
>
> /bpj
>
> Den fredagen den 28:e december 2012 skrev Leonardo Castro:
>
> > I'm creating "classes" in my language (I'm going to call it
> > "Lanku-e-honti" for now) but I have not decided whether I should
> > create a class for languages separated from the class for
> > "people/ethny/group/community", or simply saying "language of
> > people/ethny/group/community".
> >
> > For instance, instead of having "English language" in a class and
> > "English people" in another one, I could simply say "language of
> > English people". A possible problem is that some languages, such as
> > sign languages, are not directly related to a separate
> > "people/ethny/group/community", so I should "define a people" for each
> > language (American deaf people, lojbanist people, etc.).
> >
> > Would it be offensive or confusing in any way?
> >
> > Até mais!
> >
> > Leonardo
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:38:35 +0100
> From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: USAGE: Can't we say that a language is always related to a
> "people"?
>
> oops I made a typo there: _bhaa.saa_ is first declension feminine so it
> should be _sa.msk,rtaa bhaa.saa_ even though the name of the language is
> _sa.msk,rtam_.
>
> /bpj
>
> Den måndagen den 31:e december 2012 skrev Benct Philip Jonsson:
>
> > I'm not into engelamging but I'd say language is a sufficiently
> > significant and important part of human culture and behavior to merit its
> > own class unless you're under constraint as to the number of classes. And
> > unless words of one class can't be derived from words from another class
> > you can then freely derive names of languages, peoples and places from
> each
> > other in whichever direction suitable. IIUC that's how it works in Bantu
> > languages. The names of languages, peoples and places are often derived
> > from the same root with a change of noun class, without it always being
> > possible or relevant to tease out which is 'primary'. You can stay within
> > the Romance languages and find all three: _Italian_ as glottonym and
> > ethnonym is derived from the name of the country. _France_ and _French_
> are
> > derived from the name of just one of the peoples who blended together
> into
> > the modern people. _Occitania_ OTOH is named after the language, and I
> > daresay there is no agreed-upon name of the people in that case!
> >
> > Also the (politics of) relations between (names of) peoples languages and
> > places can be very complicated. To take one example: while _Hindi_ is
> > derived from the Persian name of India very many people would be very
> > pissed off if you suggested that Hindi is *the* language of India. The
> only
> > one of the many languages of India which comes close to having a
> reasonable
> > claim of being the language of all India is Sanskrit, but the Sanskrit
> name
> > of the country (Bharatavarsha) and the people (Bharatiya) are derived
> from
> > another root entirely, and to rename either after the other would be
> > absurd. BTW _sa.msk,rta bhaa.sa_ has a reasonable claim to be translated
> as
> > 'The Conlang'!
> >
> > /bpj
> >
> > Den fredagen den 28:e december 2012 skrev Leonardo Castro:
> >
> >> I'm creating "classes" in my language (I'm going to call it
> >> "Lanku-e-honti" for now) but I have not decided whether I should
> >> create a class for languages separated from the class for
> >> "people/ethny/group/community", or simply saying "language of
> >> people/ethny/group/community".
> >>
> >> For instance, instead of having "English language" in a class and
> >> "English people" in another one, I could simply say "language of
> >> English people". A possible problem is that some languages, such as
> >> sign languages, are not directly related to a separate
> >> "people/ethny/group/community", so I should "define a people" for each
> >> language (American deaf people, lojbanist people, etc.).
> >>
> >> Would it be offensive or confusing in any way?
> >>
> >> Até mais!
> >>
> >> Leonardo
> >>
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 14:35:06 +0100
> From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: USAGE: Can't we say that a language is always related to a
> "people"?
>
> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Monday 31 December 2012 12:29:16 Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>
> > [...] The names of languages, peoples and places are often derived
> > from the same root with a change of noun class, without it always being
> > possible or relevant to tease out which is 'primary'. You can stay within
> > the Romance languages and find all three: _Italian_ as glottonym and
> > ethnonym is derived from the name of the country. _France_ and _French_
> are
> > derived from the name of just one of the peoples who blended together
> into
> > the modern people. _Occitania_ OTOH is named after the language, and I
> > daresay there is no agreed-upon name of the people in that case!
>
> Yes, _Occitania_ is from Occitan _oc_ 'yes', as opposed to Old
> French _oil_ 'yes', but nobody calls northern France "Oilcitania" ;)
>
> _Deutsch_, the native name of German, was _diutisk_ in Old High
> German, which means 'of the people' (_diut_ was 'people'; a word
> that has since disappeared from the language), as opposed to other
> languages such as Latin,the language of the church and the scholars.
> _Deutschland_ is thus 'land of the people'. The English word
> _Dutch_ is from the same root and actually meant 'German' in
> Middle English (and still does in _Pennsylvania Dutch_ - that
> language variety is a dialect of High German, not of what is now
> understood to be Dutch!). Only later, it was narrowed to the
> language variety of what is closest to England of what was in
> the Middle Ages considered part of Germany.
>
> > Also the (politics of) relations between (names of) peoples languages and
> > places can be very complicated.
>
> Sure.
>
> > To take one example: while _Hindi_ is
> > derived from the Persian name of India very many people would be very
> > pissed off if you suggested that Hindi is *the* language of India. The
> only
> > one of the many languages of India which comes close to having a
> reasonable
> > claim of being the language of all India is Sanskrit, but the Sanskrit
> name
> > of the country (Bharatavarsha) and the people (Bharatiya) are derived
> from
> > another root entirely, and to rename either after the other would be
> > absurd. BTW _sa.msk,rta bhaa.sa_ has a reasonable claim to be translated
> as
> > 'The Conlang'!
>
> That actually does not stretch it too far. At any rate, "Classical
> Sanskrit" is a pleonasm, and IMHO other varieties of Old Indic, such
> as Vedic, should not be called "Sanskrit". Sanskrit proper is the
> variety Pāṇini and his colleagues abstracted from the Old Indic
> literature, i.e. the language sometimes called "Classical Sanskrit".
>
> But the Republic of India is indeed officially named _Bhārat
> Gaṇarājya_ in Hindi, with _Bhārat_ derived from the Sanskrit name.
> But calling Hindi _Bhāratī_ would nevertheless be a faux-pas, as
> it is just one of many languages of India (even if it is the one
> with the largest speaker base).
>
> And then there are names of languages which are assigned later
> by scholars and may simply be wrong! For instance, we do not know
> what the people who spoke what is now known as "Tocharian" called
> their own language. The scholars who discovered it named it after
> the Tocharoi, a people of Central Asia mentioned in Hellenistic
> sources, even though it is far from certain that the Tocharoi had
> anything to do with the speakers of "Tocharian"!
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 16:05:42 +0100
> From: BPJ <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: USAGE: Can't we say that a language is always related to a
> "people"?
>
> On 2012-12-31 14:35, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>
> > For instance, we do not know what the people who
> > spoke what is now known as "Tocharian" called their
> > own language.
>
> Actually we do. 'Tocharian A' is _arśi_ and 'Tocharian
> B' is _kuśiññe_, i.e. 'Kuchean', and some scholars have
> taken to calling the two languages "Agnean" and
> "Kuchean", rightly IMO. They are two closely related
> but rather different languages, BTW, comparable perhaps
> to modern French and Italian.
>
> And I totally think that Sanskrit is a conlang, at
> least to the same degree as all standard languages are
> conlangs, which I'm infamous to argue for! ;-)
>
> But I don't agree that "Classical Sanskrit" is a
> misnomer. There certainly are postclassical text which
> while not formally violating any Pāṇinean grammar rules
> represent a quite different idiom, among other things
> going to great length in preferring nominalizations and
> nominal forms to finite verbs and multi-part compounds
> to nominal phrases with inflected attributes; a very
> reduced and formulaic grammar which simply disuses
> large parts of the classical grammar.
>
> I once had the idea to base an 'Indic auxlang' on that
> style of Sanskrit, an _avyaya-saṃskṛta_ parallel to
> Latino Sine Flexione, using participle stems as verbs
> and aderbs as adpositions. Thankfully I've left such
> nonsense behind me!
>
> /bpj
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:55:30 -0500
> From: neo gu <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Dec29, an XVOS idea (longish)
>
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:59:00 -0500, neo gu <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Adjunct clauses are formed like complement clauses but appear after a
> complete
> > set of arguments (or maybe before the host clause). For temporal
> adjuncts, the
> > translation includes a conjunction "while", "after", "before", or "when"
> which
> > depends on the aspect of the auxiliary.
> >
> >M2-Aor leave Mary S2-Dur eat John "Mary left while John was eating."
> >M2-Aor leave Mary S2-Prf eat John "Mary left after John had eaten."
> >M2-Aor leave Mary S2-Pro eat John "Mary left before John ate."
> >M2-Dur eat John S2-Aor leave Mary "John was eating when Mary left."
> >
> >Aor = Aoristic, Dur = Durative, Prf = Perfect, Pro = Prospective.
>
> All the M2's and S2's here should have been marked as inverse (/). Also,
> the main clause tenses and aspects have changed, so the corrected version
> is:
>
> M2/Pst leave Mary S2/Dur eat John "Mary left while John was eating."
> M2/Pst leave Mary S2/Prf eat John "Mary left after John had eaten."
> M2/Pst leave Mary S2/Pro eat John "Mary left before John ate."
> M2/Pst eat John S2/Aor leave Mary "John was eating when Mary left."
>
> Note that the past tense (Pst) is used for both past perfective and past
> imperfective.
>
> Here are a couple examples using the coreferential:
>
> M3Pst see John Mary C1/Pro eat "Mary saw John before she ate."
> M3/Pst see Mary John C1/Pro eat "Mary saw John before he ate."
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:39:56 -0500
> From: "Jacob O." <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: If
>
> On Sat, 29 Dec 2012 14:11:47 -0500, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 28 Dec 2012 22:42:43 -0500, Jacob O. <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>
> >UNLWS being a language with full expressive capability, I'm sure there
> will eventually arise other ways to talk about these notions. (Leave the
> absurd "there's only one way to do it" to Python!) But, formally speaking,
> we have (at present) given these worldy predicates forms which are quite
> unlike the usual glyphs-and-binding-points one, with an eye towards them
> being the most grammaticalised and thus most basic options.
>
> Most language-users don't mean to make reference to a plurality of worlds
> in day to day speech about contingency. More often, they wish to express a
> plurality of conceivables (mental possibility). One of the problems with
> David Lewis' Counterpart Theory is that you're forced to strip actuality of
> its meaning--for David Lewis, actuality is an indexical rather than a
> modality.
>
> The point I was trying to make about Descartes is that modality is never
> only a content. If D. doubts certainty, what has he done? He has applied
> the modality of possibility to that of which he is certain, or, in other
> words, to necessity. If some parts of modality are irretrievably mixed into
> the content--as Lewis does by turning actuality into an indexical--you make
> impossible a good deal of conversational nuance.
>
> Meaningful use of contingency implies at least two options, i.e. implies
> possibility: "If A then B" means nothing if "A" is not possible. Similarly,
> if "A" is necessary, then "If A then B" might as well be "A and B", or even
> simply "B", since "Not A" was never possible in the first place. In
> everyday use the possibility (plurality of options) is in the
> language-user's mind, as it is uncertainty (possibility/plurality of
> options in thought) about "A" that makes the expression of "If A then B" a
> useful one. Of course, out of "A" and "Not A", one might be vastly more
> likely, but the fact that both are *mentally possible* is what makes the
> statement one worth uttering.
>
> When someone expresses mental uncertainty, it's nothing to write home
> about. When, on the other hand, a physicist expresses uncertainty between
> options, they might meaningfully mean any one of the following options:
> a) there are possible worlds and we can't know which one we live in until
> we make an observation;
> b) the [actual] world is simultaneously in multiple states until an act of
> observation;
> c) there is no [possibility of] knowledge until an act of observation is
> made.
>
>
> >>Somewhat in line with this, have you considered ways of bracketing out
> one or more of the Language-Thought-Reality trio? Bracketing reality, for
> instance, to talk only about the interaction between thought and language,
> or bracketing language (by treating it as transparent). A non-linear system
> might be able to more precisely/succinctly express these distinctions by
> making explicit discursive restrictions. More concretely, Descartes would
> want to put discussions of reality off-limits because part of his project
> is _doubting certainty_, which seems downright bizarre unless you can
> express the modalities of different levels.
> >
> >This trio is new to us. Google seems to suggest it's due to Whorf: is
> there something we should read for it?
>
> I don't think anything in particular needs to be read, because at its
> heart my point doesn't require a lot of theoretical understanding. I'm
> simply arguing that modality needs to be separable from content, and that
> only by doing this can your language succeed in being 'fully expressive'.
> Otherwise it fails to allow some modal configurations that are, even if you
> don't believe they're correct, at least not provably wrong.
>
> Modal disagreements occur all the time because of the difficulty of
> answering the following question: "How do we know the modality of any
> statement?".
>
> Some types of empiricists, for instance, will claim that "2*2=4" is
> possible or probable, but will also admit the possibility that they have
> made a mistake somewhere--or indeed, that in the past when they calculated
> the product they were correct, but that if the experiment were conducted on
> Alpha Centauri, or 12 billion years in the future, or whatever, the results
> might vary.
>
> >I'm inclined to the idea, which I picked up mostly from Less Wrong, that
> one should be careful about introducing reality onto the stage with these
> other two at all -- none of us have any sort of privileged access to
> reality, after all, just our percepts and our mental models, and a
> cognitive algorithm which operates as if that _was_ direct access to
> reality. And it's objects within those mental model that are the natural
> referents of language.
> >
>
> In a way, that's exactly my point: you've already gone and bracketed out
> reality and the modality of actuality.
>
> I agree that bringing all three onto the stage at once leads to confusion;
> there's really only room for two. The question then becomes, "Which two?"
> and I answer that it depends on what the language-user wants to express.
>
> An eliminative materialist like Pat Churchland might wish to speak about
> reality, but to do away with talk about most things mental. By disallowing
> discussions about reality (as distinct from thought and language), you make
> anyone who believes the statements of eliminative materialism sound
> absurd--and that one might disagree with those statements does not imply
> that one would want discussions of/about it to be rendered nonsense.
>
> Since Pat Churchland doesn't believe in mental phenomena, she would be
> forced to assert seemingly bizarre and possibly even contradictory things,
> all the while mangling the semantics of your language by e.g. using words
> you use to refer to mental phenomena to make reference to things that must
> be separated from the mental before consideration.
>
>
> >>>So though many loglangs love their logical conjunctions, so far we
> >>>don't have any. :-P (OTOH, UNLWS doesn't _set out_ to be a loglang,
> >>>but primarily rather a 2D written language.)
> >>
> >>Makes me wonder whether there is a clear way of setting up truth-tables
> for non-linear logics. (It sounds like a nightmare.)
> >
> >Well, step one, what's a non-linear logic?!
>
> A non-linear logic would be a formal version of UNLWS (or some comparable
> system). I don't know how feasible a proof would be of the non-equivalence
> between such a Fully Two Dimensional Formal Language (FTDFL) and predicate
> logic, so I'm not going to attempt one. I'll sketch out instead the
> criteria that define the equivalence or non-equivalence of the two.
>
> Each FTDFL statement p* translates into a set of linear statements P in a
> predicate logic by cycling through traverse orders, start-, and end-points.
> If p* has a translation in a predicate logic that preserves all of the
> information in p*, then that statement will be p', or the linear
> translation of p*.
> I suspect that P might not always be finite, but that it will always be
> countable, and I'm operating under that assumption.
>
> 1. For all p*, there is at least one member of P that can reconstitute p*.
> There need not be a decision procedure for choosing p' out of the
> members of P. If p' exists for all p*, then FTDFL is equivalent to
> predicate logic.
> 2. For all p*, all members of P have the same truth conditions, or subsets
> of the same set of truth conditions.
> If this is the case, p* might be reconstituted from P as a
> whole--although if p* is equivalent to some logical composition (over
> linear operators) of the members of P, the logical composition should
> itself be a member of P and should be equivalent to p', or itself be p'. If
> irreducibly non-linear operators are required to compose p* out of the
> members of P, then FDTFL is not equivalent to predicate logic.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:46:51 +0100
> From: Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: USAGE: Can't we say that a language is always related to a
> "people"?
>
> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Monday 31 December 2012 16:05:42 BPJ wrote:
>
> > On 2012-12-31 14:35, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> > > For instance, we do not know what the people who
> > > spoke what is now known as "Tocharian" called their
> > > own language.
> >
> > Actually we do. 'Tocharian A' is _arśi_ and 'Tocharian
> > B' is _kuśiññe_, i.e. 'Kuchean', and some scholars have
> > taken to calling the two languages "Agnean" and
> > "Kuchean", rightly IMO.
>
> Thank you for correcting me. I didn't know that the self-
> designations are known.
>
> > They are two closely related
> > but rather different languages, BTW, comparable perhaps
> > to modern French and Italian.
>
> Yes, they are. Closely related but different.
>
> > And I totally think that Sanskrit is a conlang, at
> > least to the same degree as all standard languages are
> > conlangs, which I'm infamous to argue for! ;-)
> >
> > But I don't agree that "Classical Sanskrit" is a
> > misnomer. There certainly are postclassical text which
> > while not formally violating any Pāṇinean grammar rules
> > represent a quite different idiom, among other things
> > going to great length in preferring nominalizations and
> > nominal forms to finite verbs and multi-part compounds
> > to nominal phrases with inflected attributes; a very
> > reduced and formulaic grammar which simply disuses
> > large parts of the classical grammar.
>
> Sure. I am not an Indologist, so I cannot say what kinds of
> varieties of Old Indic exist, and what to properly name them.
>
> > I once had the idea to base an 'Indic auxlang' on that
> > style of Sanskrit, an _avyaya-saṃskṛta_ parallel to
> > Latino Sine Flexione, using participle stems as verbs
> > and aderbs as adpositions. Thankfully I've left such
> > nonsense behind me!
>
> That could be fun to work out, like Ray Brown's TAKE, but one
> should indeed avoid seriously proposing such a beast as an
> auxlang. India already has an auxlang - English ;)
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 13:11:23 -0500
> From: Matthew Martin <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: USAGE: Can't we say that a language is always related to a
> "people"?
>
> >A possible problem is that some languages, such as
> > sign languages, are not directly related to a separate
> > "people/ethny/group/community", so I should "define a people" for each
> > language (American deaf people, lojbanist people, etc.).
>
> I think a better example of what you are trying to get at is maybe,
> communication systems like modern mathematical notation or maybe
> programming languages. In the former case, there isn't necessarily a lot
> of social interaction of the sort you see with natural languages, there
> aren't that many competing dialects in the case of math. In the case of
> programming, most of the time communication is with the computer and
> sometimes with other software developers. Both of these cut across regular
> social group & language boundaries.
>
> Now for the deaf, the Deaf, and lojbanistan:
> The deaf are people who just lost their hearing. If they are late in life
> deaf, they are learning ASL as a 2nd language, are not necessarily (at
> first or sometimes ever) very good at it and they prefer to hang out with
> the English speaking hearing, sort of the way immigrants prefer to hang out
> in the immigrant community.
>
> The implication that the Deaf are an incidental group, like the group of
> people who have to communicate with their hands while their mouths are full
> of cookies-- in the right part of Washington DC this would lead to a small
> riot. The Deaf on the other hand, probably speak ASL as their native
> language, use English as a foreign language and prefer to hang out with
> other Deaf for the same reason that you (and I) don't immediately gravitate
> to hanging out with mono-lingual Mongolian speakers. Learning languages is
> hard and getting people to learn your language is crazy hard and that has
> real consequences for who you hang out with.
>
> By the way I highly recommend taking the time to break out of ones normal
> group, since ASL (and the other SLs) are great fun and Mongolian has
> awesome pop music.
>
> I think the people of lojbanistan are indeed an identifiable social group
> and in a more interesting way than the group of people who are just logic
> specialists or mathematicians who use Liebniz's notation for calculus. For
> example, there have been weddings where the vows were in lojban.
>
> I don't know about your language, but I would imagine a word should
> reflect the salient points of the world according to the inner logic of
> your language and it's speakers (which could just be you or some imaginary
> entity). If social grouping is important, then you will be likely to create
> words that reflect social characteristics. On the otherhand, in a my cat's
> conlang, he's going to mostly have words that divide up the world into me,
> mother cat, edible creatures, creatures that might want to eat me,
> creatures that don't taste good and things that smell like citrus. In a
> catlang, social groups are irrelevant noise, like having a word for people
> who often fart while looking to the east and remembering about the things
> they should not remember.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:39:32 -0800
> From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: A New Language
>
> Alex emailed me privately, but said I could respond on list.
>
> On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 14:41:10 -0800, Sylvia Sotomayor <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 7:34 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >>> Hallo conlangers!
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 13:17:30 -0800 Sylvia Sotomayor wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Language Name*:
> >>>> hɛlo
> >>>> *subject to change, of course.
> >>>>
> >>>> Quick phonology:
> >>>> p b t d k g m n ŋ l v s ɬ h y
> >>>> i ɪ u e o ɛ ɔ a
> >>>
> >>> A bit crowded in the high front corner of the vowel space, but
> >>> fine.
> >>
> >>If it helps, I think of ɪ as a high, central, unrounded vowel and a as
> >>a back vowel, nearly indistinguishable from ɔ.
> >
> > I had actually been considering commenting on the /I/, that the system
> felt a little unbalanced with the /I/ and no /U/, and it might fit better
> as a /1/. Now I find this is actually what you were thinking! Why, then,
> did you symbolise it /I/ and not /1/?
> >
> > And as for /A/ being "nearly indistinguishable" from /O/, is this a
> symptom of cot-caught merging (in case you have that)? 'Cause an /A/ vs.
> /O/ distinction is still plenty stable, usually.
> >
>
> I meant the vowel commonly transcribed with barred i, but got them
> confused. Though, looking at the wikipedia IPA vowels page
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vowel_chart_with_audio, I think what
> I really want is the small cap i with the umlaut, which I am going to
> write using the small cap i. So, in revision, I have 3 front vowels:
> i, e, ɛ; 2 central vowels: ɪ̈ written ɪ, ɐ written a; and two back
> vowels: u, o. e and o might actually be e̞ and o̞.
>
> And, yes, to me cot and caught are pronounced the same, so if I can't
> hear or produce the difference, I don't want both in my language.
>
> The consonants remain the same, though I did consider adding a 'z',
> and then decided against it.
>
> Back to working on evidentiality and other neato modalities....
> -S
> --
> Sylvia Sotomayor
>
> The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 20:43:32 +0100
> From: Melroch <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: A New Language
>
> There is a U+1D7B LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL LETTER I WITH STROKE ᵻ. It may
> not be officially sanctioned by the IPA but it sure is what the letter for
> a lax high unrounded central vowel will look like so I use it with
> impunity. The sound for some reason occurs for /i/ in my native dialect. I
> and others also use I\ (and U\) in CXS by analogy with the lowercase
> symbols.
>
> Michael E, if you're reading this could you perhaps explain the logic or
> lack thereof in the use of BARRED and WITH STROKE in Unicode names. I think
> in terms of stroke = slanted, bar = horizontal and line/pipe = vertical but
> stroke in Unicode parlance seems to be sometimes slanted and sometimes
> horizontal. Also those letters have no decomposition in spite of the
> various stroke/solidus/line overlay combining characters. A bit confusing
> and annoying actually.
>
> /bpj
>
> Den måndagen den 31:e december 2012 skrev Sylvia Sotomayor:
>
> > Alex emailed me privately, but said I could respond on list.
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]
> <javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> > > On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 14:41:10 -0800, Sylvia Sotomayor <
> [log in to unmask]<javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >>On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 7:34 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier <
> [log in to unmask]<javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> > >>> Hallo conlangers!
> > >>>
> > >>> On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 13:17:30 -0800 Sylvia Sotomayor wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Language Name*:
> > >>>> hɛlo
> > >>>> *subject to change, of course.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Quick phonology:
> > >>>> p b t d k g m n ŋ l v s ɬ h y
> > >>>> i ɪ u e o ɛ ɔ a
> > >>>
> > >>> A bit crowded in the high front corner of the vowel space, but
> > >>> fine.
> > >>
> > >>If it helps, I think of ɪ as a high, central, unrounded vowel and a as
> > >>a back vowel, nearly indistinguishable from ɔ.
> > >
> > > I had actually been considering commenting on the /I/, that the system
> > felt a little unbalanced with the /I/ and no /U/, and it might fit better
> > as a /1/. Now I find this is actually what you were thinking! Why,
> then,
> > did you symbolise it /I/ and not /1/?
> > >
> > > And as for /A/ being "nearly indistinguishable" from /O/, is this a
> > symptom of cot-caught merging (in case you have that)? 'Cause an /A/ vs.
> > /O/ distinction is still plenty stable, usually.
> > >
> >
> > I meant the vowel commonly transcribed with barred i, but got them
> > confused. Though, looking at the wikipedia IPA vowels page
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vowel_chart_with_audio, I think what
> > I really want is the small cap i with the umlaut, which I am going to
> > write using the small cap i. So, in revision, I have 3 front vowels:
> > i, e, ɛ; 2 central vowels: ɪ̈ written ɪ, ɐ written a; and two back
> > vowels: u, o. e and o might actually be e̞ and o̞.
> >
> > And, yes, to me cot and caught are pronounced the same, so if I can't
> > hear or produce the difference, I don't want both in my language.
> >
> > The consonants remain the same, though I did consider adding a 'z',
> > and then decided against it.
> >
> > Back to working on evidentiality and other neato modalities....
> > -S
> > --
> > Sylvia Sotomayor
> >
> > The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 15:31:21 -0500
> From: neo gu <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: If
>
> On Thu, 27 Dec 2012 03:00:35 -0500, Sai <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >Something I kinda enjoy about working on UNLWS[0] w/ Alex Fink is the
> >philosophy-of-language-ish parts required.
> >
> >One of our longer term projects has been an interpretation of the
> >Prayer of St. Francis (which is incidentally the only one I ever
> >pray).
> >
> >The first verse of it has essentially the form "where there is a lack
> >of X, may I provide X". This in turn requires expressing "need", which
> >we analyze as an "if" — "X needs Y" is really "X is good [in way Z]
> >only if Y".
> >
> >And "if" in turn brings up the issue of hypothetical nonce worlds
> >(e.g. "if I were rich, …" creates a discussion where you are talking
> >about an alternate world which inherits from this one but has your
> >wealth status overriden).
> >
> >How to do _that_ took us a few months off and on to work out, probably
> >a few hours of actual discussion and lots of mulling inbetween.
> >
> >We finally decided on a solution. It requires a predicate "X is true
> >in world Y", a special cartouche which delineates a world, and a
> >special pronoun (or predicate?) which references the extant world
> >(i.e. a _this_ keyword). (We haven't fixed on forms for those yet.)
> >
> >Thus, "X if Y" is "in a world defined by Y, X".
> >
> >It also turned out to want a revision to our set of articles;
> >previously, we had only indefinite and generic (there's no definite
> >article, since we do that by direct reference). Now there are two
> >more: universal and correlative (e.g. Indians are _correlative_
> >phone-center workers — the generic Indian is not one, but they're more
> >common than one would expect).
> >
> >(Another gloss of the correlative article: "being an A is [possibly
> >weak] Bayesian evidence for being a B".)
> >
> >We also revised the form of the articles: indefinite article is now
> >just a dot, paralleling the form of the number 1.
> >
> >Incidentally, we previously considered and rejected the more usual
> >loglang adoption of _logical if_ (i.e. "not [hypothesis] ior
> >[conclusion]") as just not really the sort of thing that one wants to
> >naturally _say_ in language — specifically, the "if false than
> >anything" part is not something anyone actually uses.
> >
> >We also didn't need an 'and' — that just falls out of our
> >predicates-and-bindings framework. "Or" we handled by basically "one
> >of [group of things] is true", which has the same inclusive/exclusive
> >Gricean ambiguity as in English (i.e. exactly-one vs one-or-more,
> >which we can disambiguate if needed).
> >
> >So though many loglangs love their logical conjunctions, so far we
> >don't have any. :-P (OTOH, UNLWS doesn't _set out_ to be a loglang,
> >but primarily rather a 2D written language.)
> >
> >Anyway, whee engelangs, making you rethink such basic kinds of things.
>
> I always try to rethink basic things, not that I'm ever successful. I wish
> I understood this thread.
>
> >
> >- Sai
> >
> >[0] http://saizai.com/nlws
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 16:48:11 -0800
> From: Sylvia Sotomayor <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: A New Language (Take II)
>
> >> >>> On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 13:17:30 -0800 Sylvia Sotomayor wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Language Name*:
> >> >>>> hɛlo
> >> >>>> *subject to change, of course.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Quick phonology:
> >> >>>> p b t d k g m n ŋ l v s ɬ h y
> >> >>>> i ɪ u e o ɛ ɔ a
> >> >>>
> In revision, I have 3 front vowels:
> >> i, e, ɛ; 2 central vowels: ɪ̈ written ɪ, ɐ written a; and two back
> >> vowels: u, o. e and o might actually be e̞ and o̞.
>
> >> The consonants remain the same, though I did consider adding a 'z',
> >> and then decided against it.
> >>
>
> The story, again:
>
> slɛyɛ tena evi. tɛŋ dus saɬud slo da mɪdi lɪkɪdɬɛyandɛ ndo. don
> muludan lakyallaya tɪŋi ndo. smani ŋye ŋidussi da mɪdi lɪkɪdɬɛyandɛŋi
> tomɪdi sdon muludɪdɛn ŋipɛsi ndo. aɬud mɛkyɛgɛ evibi ndo. saɬud
> mɛdɛlɪdɛn tɪŋina ndo. mɛdɛlɪdɛn lɪtɪmyandɛn todɪdɛn sdon muludɪdɛn
> onna ndo. aɬud mɛkyɛgɛ ɛmɛŋi ndo. lo mɛkyɛgɛ evibi ndo. slo logu evi
> ndo. sdon muludɪdɛn ŋipɛsi ndo. smani ŋye ŋidussi da lo lɪkɪdɬɛyandɛŋi
> ndo.
>
> s-lɛyɛ tena evi.
> SRC-1sM/in place story+VsM out
>
> tɛŋ dus s-aɬud s-lo
> argument+IsM back.and.forth SRC-north.wind+IsM SRC-sun+IsM
>
> da mɪdi lɪ-kɪdɬɛ-ya-ndɛ ndo.
> IsM 3sS VAL-strong-POS-RANK REPORT
>
> don mu-ludan la-kyalla-ya tɪŋi ndo.
> traveler+IsM 3P-cloak+IIIsS VAL-warm-POS along a path REPORT
>
> s-mani ŋye ŋi-dussi
> SRC-3cM agreement+IsM COMPLETED-back.and.forth
>
> da mɪdi lɪ-kɪdɬɛ-ya-ndɛ-ŋi
> IsM 3sS VAL-strong-POS-RANK-most
>
> to-mɪdi s-don mu-ludɪdɛn ŋi-pɛsi ndo.
> CAUS-3sS SRC-traveler+IsM 3P-cloak+IIIsM all.the.way-away.from.source
> REPORT
>
> aɬud mɛ-kyɛgɛ evi-bi ndo.
> north.wind+IsM 3P-attempt+VsM out-INCHOATIVE REPORT
>
> s-aɬud mɛ-dɛlɪdɛn tɪŋi-na ndo.
> SRC-north.wind+IsM 3P-breath+VIIsM along.a.path-REPEATED REPORT
>
> mɛ-dɛlɪdɛn lɪ-tɪm-ya-ndɛ-n
> 3P-breath+VIIsM VAL-forceful-POS-RANK-more
>
> to-dɪdɛn s-don mu-ludɪdɛn on-na ndo
> CAUS-VIIsM SRC-traveler+IsM 3P-cloak+IIIsM towards.source-REPEATED REPORT
>
> aɬud mɛ-kyɛgɛ ɛmɛ-ŋi ndo
> north.wind+IsM 3P-attempt+VsM into-COMPLETED REPORT
>
> lo mɛ-kyɛgɛ evi-bi ndo
> sun+IsM 3P-attempt+VsM out-STARTING REPORT
>
> s-lo logu evi ndo
> SRC-sun+IsM 3P-light+VsM out REPORT
>
> s-don mu-ludɪdɛn ŋi-pɛsi ndo
> SRC-traveler+IsM 3P-cloak+IIIsM all.the.way-away.from.source REPORT
>
> s-mani ŋye ŋi-dussi
> SRC-3cM agreement+IsM COMPLETED-back.and.forth
>
> da lo lɪ-kɪdɬɛ-ya-ndɛ-ŋi ndo
> IsM sun+IsM VAL-strong-POS-RANK REPORT
>
> Roman Numeral = noun class, Arabic Numeral = person
> Number + (s)ingular/(c)ollective/(p)lural + (M)otile/(S)essile
> (P)erson
> (CAUS)ative
> (VAL)ue
> (POS)itive
>
> A bit about Noun Classes:
>
> Class I contains things that are assumed to be motile and move in an
> arc. This includes people, certain aerial and celestial phenomena, and
> speech to an audience. IsM nouns that refer to people often have an
> alternate form for referring to movement in place (shaking, heaving,
> general fidgeting).
>
> aɬud north wind-IsM
> don traveler-IsM (in place: dona)
> lo sun-IsM
> ŋye agreement-IsM
> tɛŋ argument-IsM
>
> Class II contains things assumed sessile, but can move/be moved in an
> arc, and are natural or at least not artificial. This includes plants,
> bread, fruit, rocks, pieces of ice, etc.
>
> Class III contains things assumed sessile, move/can be moved in an
> arc, and are man-made or otherwise associated with civilization. This
> includes clothing, tools, furniture, etc.
>
> ludan cloak-IIIsS
> ludɪdɛn cloak-IIIsM
>
> Class IV contains things assumed sessile but maybe capable of being
> shaken or moving in place. This includes most locations on land (hey,
> earthquakes), and other stuff I am still thinking about.
>
> Class V contains things assumed motile that grow and/or shrink or
> otherwise move at the edges or in place. This includes the sea and
> most other bodies of water, fire, light, dark, events, speech to no
> particular audience, sounds, etc. It also includes smoke and
> precipitates (rain, snow) even though those move in an arc.
>
> kyɛgɛ attempt-VsM
> logu light-VsM
> tena story-VsM
>
> Class VI includes materials and things defined by a space that does
> not move, though its shape might change.
>
> Class VII contains things assumed sessile, but that might be made to
> move in an arc. Unlike Class II, Class VII nouns are generally not
> solids, but rather liquids, vapors, powders, and various clumpy
> substances.
>
> dɛlɪdɛn breath-VIIsM
>
> Technically Class VII should be listed between II and III, but the
> items were originally grouped into Class V until I decided that didn't
> make sense. And IV and VI might merge.
>
> Pronouns, so far:
> lɛyɛ 1sM in place
> In place because the story is in print, so the storyteller isn't going
> anywhere.
>
> mayi 3cM
> The default collective (dual, paucal) 3rd person pronoun.
>
> mɪdi 3sS
> Sessile because it refers to situations that are uncertain or not realized.
>
> Direction words, so far:
> For arcs (Classes I, II, III, and VII), there are the following direction
> words:
> tɪŋi, pɛsi, ono, dus, tudi, tad
> along.a.path, away.from.source, towards.source, back.and.forth,
> up.and.down, down.to.the.ground
>
> These can be modified for starting, finished, repeated, and interrupted.
>
> For in/out (Class V):
> evi, ɛmɛmɛ
> out.in.all.directions, in.from.all.directions
>
> These can be modified for starting and finished.
>
> Now to build more vocabulary (thank you William Annis for the
> Conlangers Thesaurus), and try some more of those syntax test
> sentences (thank you Gary Shannon).
>
> Happy New Year,
> -S
>
> --
> Sylvia Sotomayor
>
> The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 20:49:57 -0500
> From: Ralph DeCarli <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Medium-length translation text?
>
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 19:43:55 -0600
> Ian Spolarich <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> How about A&P by John Updike
>
> http://www.tiger-town.com/whatnot/updike/
>
> Ralph
>
> > My conlang Adranik really needs to be practiced and is beyond the
> > construction of simple sentences. The language is not really
> > well-suited for Biblical translations, and poetry seems too
> > difficult. Does anyone know of a good source for moderate-length
> > texts that are neither too advanced nor too simple (i.e., the text
> > incorporates many grammatical features, such as different tenses
> > or aspects, adverbs, quotes or dialogue, different moods or
> > voices, etc. etc.)? I'd really just like to test out the more
> > advanced functions of the language in an extended context, if that
> > makes sense.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > -Karl
>
>
> --
> [log in to unmask] ==> Ralph L. De Carli
>
> Have you heard of the new post-neo-modern art style?
> They haven't decided what it looks like yet.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 18:57:41 -0800
> From: Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: New 30-Day Conlang - last minute waffling
>
> Less than 6 hours until it's New Years Day here, and I'm still
> flip-flopping about how I'm going to approach my new 30-day conlang
> project. I was originally going to do it in the form of a textbook, but the
> problem with that is that to write a chapter about some particular element
> of grammar I need to know everything about that element already. The other
> problem is that by following the outline of a different language textbook I
> end up with a lot of mismatches between how the textbook language does
> things and how the conlang will do them. For example, chapter XXIX of my
> model textbook is titled "Haber, saber, and conocer" which will probably
> not be appropriate for any conlang that's not a Spanish relex.
>
> At the moment, I'm leaning toward using this text:
> http://fiziwig.com/conlang/resources/mcguffey_one.html
>
> It has 801 sentences so I would have to translate 25 to 30 sentences per
> day, and invent the grammar and vocabulary to support those daily
> translations. 30 sentences seems pretty do-able, so I may take the
> approach.
>
> On the other hand, I already built 30 empty textbook HTML pages. Of course
> there's no content in any of them so throwing them away is not a big loss.
>
> I'll sleep on it, and when I wake up tomorrow morning I'll just do whatever
> strikes my fancy. By this time tomorrow I should have something ready to
> post for the first day. Either the first 30 sentences and accompanying
> grammar from the reader, or the first chapter of the textbook.
>
> --gary
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:34:47 -0500
> From: Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Medium-length translation text?
>
> On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Go to project Gutenberg and look at kids books, or light reading such
> > as "Alice in Wonderland". There are lots of books of fables and fairy
> > tales on Gutenberg as well.
>
> "Alice in Wonderland" may be light reading, but with all the wordplay
> and logic-play, it's probably harder to translate than many other
> children's books. That's not to say you shouldn't try, of course.
> But it might not be the best place to start with a newish conlang that
> hasn't been tested on simpler texts yet.
>
> --
> Jim Henry
> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
> http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 20:03:03 -0800
> From: Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Medium-length translation text?
>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > > Go to project Gutenberg and look at kids books, or light reading such
> > > as "Alice in Wonderland". There are lots of books of fables and fairy
> > > tales on Gutenberg as well.
> >
> > "Alice in Wonderland" may be light reading, but with all the wordplay
> > and logic-play, it's probably harder to translate than many other
> > children's books. That's not to say you shouldn't try, of course.
> > But it might not be the best place to start with a newish conlang that
> > hasn't been tested on simpler texts yet.
> >
> > The start here:
>
> file:///C:/Users/Gary%20Shannon/Documents/Web/conlang/resources/mcguffey_one.html
>
> --gary
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 20:04:35 -0800
> From: Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Medium-length translation text?
>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > "Alice in Wonderland" may be light reading, but with all the wordplay
> > and logic-play, it's probably harder to translate than many other
> > children's books. That's not to say you shouldn't try, of course.
> > But it might not be the best place to start with a newish conlang that
> > hasn't been tested on simpler texts yet.
> >
> > OOPS! That link was supposed to be:
> http://fiziwig.com/conlang/resources/mcguffey_one.html
>
> --gary
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 05:05:05 +0100
> From: Henrik Theiling <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: META: Conlang-L FAQ
>
> The following is the de facto Conlang-L FAQ, hosted at:
>
> http://wiki.frath.net/Conlang-L_FAQ
>
> This is automatically posted once a month, copied directly from that page,
> for the benefit of new members. If you would like to change it, please
> edit it at the link above.
>
> **Henrik
>
>
> ==Where to get Conlang-L==
>
> The official archives are at
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html .
> From there, you can search the archives, get an RSS feed, manage your
> subscription, etc.
>
> It's also the ONLY place you can go to sign up and post things to the list.
>
> A read-only archive with a nicer user interface is at
> http://archives.conlang.info/ . [As of April 2009 this archive has ceased
> mirroring new messages. Henrik Theiling knows about the problem and has
> said
> he's planning to fix it but hasn't had time to do so yet.]
>
> Conlang-L is also _mirrored_ as a Yahoo group, but there is no way to have
> posts to the Yahoo group sent to the actual list. Do *not* subscribe to
> the
> Yahoo group. It has no admin anymore. Go to
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html instead!
>
> ==A brief history of the list==
>
> The list evolved from some informal email conversations among an early
> group
> of language enthusiasts. The earliest mail mirror was run by John Ross out
> of
> the BU physics department, and was up and running by 29 July 1991. It
> moved to
> Denmark on 23 March, 1993.
>
> The original note reads in part:
>
> ''By agreement with John Ross, the CONLANG mailing list has been moved to
> diku.dk, the mail hub of the CS Department of the University of
> Copenhagen.
> Send all submissions to CONLANG at diku dot dk. The address at buphy
> still
> works, but it is just an alias for the new list.''
>
> ''Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dept) (Humour NOT marked)''
>
> (Note that the submission address in that historical note '''NO LONGER
> WORKS'''.)
>
> Later, growing traffic and changes at the university necessitated a move.
> In
> January–February of 1997 the list moved to its current home at Brown
> University's LISTSERV server. David Durand made the move and actively
> moderated the list from that point on.
>
> Before the move, threads centered on debates on the relative merits of
> [[auxlang]]s had become common on CONLANG; these were often incendiary and
> irritated many listmembers. Accordingly, when the new CONLANG list was
> set up
> at Brown, a sister list AUXLANG was set up to cater to participants of
> these
> threads, and auxlang advocacy was banned from CONLANG. It still is.
> (Dispassionate discussion of auxlangs is welcome.)
>
> In ??? John Cowan took over actual moderation duties, as "Lord of the
> Instrumentality".
>
> Later the torch was passed to Henrik Theiling.
>
> ==List behaviour==
>
> The CONLANG list rejects attachments.
>
> ===Posting limits===
>
> As a traffic-limiting measure, if the list receives more than 99 messages
> in a
> given day (in Brown's time zone), all subsequent messages will be
> automatically held and not delivered until the admin unblocks the list.
>
> Sometimes, during longer periods of high traffic, a further limit is
> imposed
> restricting each person to five posts a day. ''This restriction is
> currently
> in force.'' Messages beyond the daily limit are simply bounced, not held
> for
> the next day.
>
> Posters are encouraged to consolidate several shorter replies on a single
> topic into a single message.
>
> ==Subject Topic Tags==
>
> In the subject line of a post, you can mark the post with one of the
> following
> tags. Tags are only recognised if a colon follows immediately: no other
> decoration (e.g. brackets, an extra space) should be used. Any 'Re:' etc.
> is
> irrelevant -- the software skips it.
>
> Good tag syntax:
>
> CHAT: Is the world really round?
>
> Bad tag syntax:
>
> [CHAT]: Is the world really round?
>
> These are the official tags the listserv software can be instructed to
>
> filter automatically. There are currently exactly four:
>
> * OT: off-topic stuff
>
> * CHAT: off-topic stuff of the conversational sort
>
> * USAGE: natural language usage (all of the YAEPT and similar should use
> this)
>
> * THEORY: linguistic theory discussions
>
> Only the above tags are official and configured for filtering. However,
> most
> advanced mail clients can be set to have extra filters, such as for the
> following unofficial tags:
>
> * OFFLIST: not actually seen on-list, this tag is added to make explicitly
> clear that you are taking a subject offlist (i.e. you're emailing someone
> directly about it)
>
> The following are explicitly not included in the list of filterable tags:
>
> * META: threads about CONLANG-L itself
>
> * TECH: technical issues (e.g. email programs, list-related technical
> problems, etc)
>
> Finally, there are two meta-tags:
>
> * [CONLANG]: This should not be actually added when starting a new subject;
> you can make the listserv prepend it automatically to all email (so that
> you
> can set your mail client to filter all list traffic)
>
> * "was": used to change the subject, or more commonly, to indicate that the
> subject of a thread changed a while ago and you're no longer pretending
> it's
> about the original topic
>
> Example:
>
> JAMA says flat earth leads to flat [@] (was CHAT: Is the world really
> round?)
>
> Note that tags ARE included after the "was", but "Re:" is NOT, nor is
> [CONLANG].
>
> ==Acronyms==
>
> List of acronyms specific to the Conlang Mailing List:
>
> * AFMCL - "As for my conlang.."
>
> ** AFMOCL - "As for my own conlang"
>
> * ANADEW - "A natlang's already dunnit, except worse"
>
> * ANADEWism - Something you thought was unique, but ANADEW
>
> * IML - "in my 'lect" (dialect or [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiolect
> idiolect], depending on context)
>
> * LCC - the [http://conference.conlang.org Language Creation Conference]
>
> * LCS - the [http://conlang.org Language Creation Society]
>
> * NCNC - "No cross, no crown". In the context of the list, "don't discuss
> religion or politics"
> ([http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2006/05/no-cross-no-crown.htmlnot its
> more general meaning]).
>
> * NLF2DWS or NLWS - Non-linear [fully 2-dimensional] writing system
>
> * YAEPT (the original acronym) - Yet Another English Pronunciation Thread
>
> ** YADPT ... Dutch Pronunciation ...
>
> ** YAGPT ... German Pronunciation ...
>
> ** YAEGT ... English Grammar ...
>
> ** YAEUT ... English Usage ...
>
> ** general pattern: YA(Language)(Topic)T
>
> Acronyms not on this list might be in general usage: try
> [http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aafaict Google's define:] or
> [http://www.acronymfinder.com/ Acronym Finder].
>
> ==Other conlang-specific vocabulary==
>
> From [http://cassowary.free.fr/Linguistics/Conlang%20Dictionary/ here] and
> [http://arthaey.mine.nu/~arthaey/conlang/faq.html here]. See also
> [[Conlang
> terminology]].
>
> con__
>
> * constructed __ (generally a contraction): conlang, conworld, conhistory,
> conculture, ...
>
> __lang
>
> * a language characterised by ___ (generally a contraction): conlang,
> artlang,
> auxlang, ...
>
> [[artlang]]
>
> # A language constructed for the beauty or fun of doing so. [From
> art(istic) +
> lang(uage)]
>
> # (See conlang) [From art(ificial) + lang(uage)]
>
> [[auxlang]]
>
> * A language constructed to replace or complement natlangs to facilitate
> cross-linguistic communication. [From aux(iliary) + lang(uage)]
>
> concultural [From con(structed) + cultur(e) + al]
>
> * Adjective form of "conculture".
>
> [[conculture]] [From con(structed) + culture]
>
> * A fictional culture created as a backdrop to a conlang. See also
> "conworld".
>
> [[conlang]] [From con(structed) + lang(uage)]
>
> # n. A constructed language
>
> # v. To construct a language
>
> [[CONLANG]] (all caps), conlang-l, Conlang-L, or CONLANG-L
>
> * A very active conlang mailing list hosted by brown.edu, and currently
> operated by Henrik Theiling
>
> [[conworld]] [From con(structed) + world]
>
> * A fictional world created to host a conlang or conculture. See also
> "conculture".
>
> [[engelang]] /ˈendʒlæŋ/ [From eng(ineered) + lang(uage)]
>
> * A conlang that is designed to certain criteria, such that it is
> objectively
> testable whether the criteria are met or not. This is different from
> claiming
> that the criteria themselves are 'objective'. For example, the
> Lojban/Loglan
> roots are designed to be maximally recognisable to the speakers of the
> (numerically) largest languages in the world in proportion to the number of
> speakers. It is not a matter of taste whether this criterion is met; it is
> something that can be tested. (by John Cowan) [From eng(ineered) +
> lang(uage)]
>
> etabnannery /raːmnænəɹi/ (rare)
>
> * The state of appearing entirely unpredictable, but, upon closer analysis,
> failing at even being that. [From Etá̄bnann(i), a conlang by Tristan
> McLeay,
> which was supposed to have an unpredictable orthography, but ended up just
> having a confusing one. Damn people trying to make patterns everywhere. At
> least it's a bugger to typeset!... errm... back to the derivation + -ery]
>
> maggelity /məˈgɛlɪti/ (rare) [From Maggel, a conlang by Christophe
> Grandsire which has a rarely predictable orthography]
>
> # The state of being entirely unpredictable. (Tristan McLeay)
>
> # The state of being regularly unpredictable, such as to horribly confuse
> anyone unfamiliar with the language, lulling them into a full sense of
> security before pointing out, cartoon-character-style, that the ground no
> longer exists where they're standing. (Tristan McLeay and H. S. Teoh)
>
> Maggel's Paradox (rare)
>
> * Your radical ideas have already occurred to others. (Muke Tever)
>
> [[natlang]] [From nat(ural) + lang(uage)]
>
> # A natural language, i.e., one that naturally developed in the world, as
> opposed to a conlang.
>
> ObConlang (or ObCL)
>
> * Just before something about conlanging in an otherwise off-topic post.
>
> * From ob(ligatory) + conlang (i.e., an obligatory on-topic comment about
> conlangs just so that the post isn't completely off-topic).
>
> [[translation relay]]
>
> * A game similar to Telephone or Chinese Whispers, wherein the participants
> translate a passage one at a time, in serial, into their own languages -
> and
> then marvel at how far from the original the translations have gotten.
>
> ==CXS (Conlang X-SAMPA)==
>
> [[CXS]] is a version of X-SAMPA for use on the CONLANG mailing list.
> X-SAMPA
> is a way to write the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) using normal
> plain-ASCII text that everyone can read.
>
> * [http://www.theiling.de/ipa/ Theiling Online: Conlang X-Sampa (CXS)] -
> includes CXS-to-IPA conversion chart
>
> * [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Conlang/Appendix/CXS CXS at Wikibooks]
>
> ==Related lists==
>
> The Auxlang list, mentioned above, is dedicated to international auxiliary
> languages. Its archives and subscription interface are at
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/auxlang.html .
>
> The list [log in to unmask] is dedicated to the planning and
> conducting of [[conlang relay]]s, q.v.
>
> ==Resources==
>
> * [http://www.arthaey.com/conlang/faq.html Arthaey's Conlang FAQ]
>
> * [http://www.langmaker.com LangMaker] - repository of many conlang
> "biographies"
>
> * [http://wiki.frath.net Frath Wiki] - a similar site, and host of the
> Conlang-L (wikified) FAQ
>
> * [http://www.omniglot.com Omniglot] - which has information on more
> writing
> systems than you thought could exist
>
> {{Conlangculture}}
>
> [[Category:Terminology]]
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of CONLANG Digest - 30 Dec 2012 to 31 Dec 2012 (#2013-1)
> ************************************************************
>

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June 2009, Week 2
June 2009, Week 1
May 2009, Week 5
May 2009, Week 4
May 2009, Week 3
May 2009, Week 2
May 2009, Week 1
April 2009, Week 5
April 2009, Week 4
April 2009, Week 3
April 2009, Week 2
April 2009, Week 1
March 2009, Week 5
March 2009, Week 4
March 2009, Week 3
March 2009, Week 2
March 2009, Week 1
February 2009, Week 4
February 2009, Week 3
February 2009, Week 2
February 2009, Week 1
January 2009, Week 5
January 2009, Week 4
January 2009, Week 3
January 2009, Week 2
January 2009, Week 1
December 2008, Week 5
December 2008, Week 4
December 2008, Week 3
December 2008, Week 2
December 2008, Week 1
November 2008, Week 5
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November 2008, Week 1
October 2008, Week 5
October 2008, Week 4
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October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
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September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
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August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
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July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
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September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
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May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
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April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
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February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
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January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
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November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
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October 2006, Week 1
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September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 3
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July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
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June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
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April 2004, Week 1
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March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
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September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
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August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
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January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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November 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
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February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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