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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 1

CONLANG January 2013, Week 1

Subject:

Re: How to "grow" a conlang.

From:

Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 7 Jan 2013 09:54:56 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (132 lines)

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 7:26 AM, Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> I would suggest basing the corpus not exclusively on translated
> sentences, but largely on originally composed sentences.  And, of
> course, when translating, translate from different sources as you
> suggest.

I see two problems with that approach.

First, that puts the burden on the participant to think of something
original to say. For some people that can discourage them from
participation. I've seen it happen with other collaborative projects,
and in language classes where the teacher tells the student "Say
something in Spanish." Errk! Brain freeze.

Second, with other collaborative projects I've done where original
sentences were used some participants seemed to enjoy interjecting
wildly improbable sentences. After someone has translated sentences
like "John gave the book to Mary." and "I have three more cookies than
you have.", the perverse participant would come along with something
like "It is a tricky problem to find the particular calibration in
timing that would be appropriate to stem the acceleration in risk
premiums created by falling incomes without prematurely aborting the
decline in the inflation-generated risk premiums."

They would introduce lexicon items that nobody else would use in a
million years, and constructions that could hardly be untangled. They
would coin ridiculously complex terms from organic chemistry, or
jargon specific to some branch of botany or internal medicine. Why, I
can't imagine. The result was that the whole collaborative project
fell apart under the weigh of a handful of show-offs.


[---snip---]
  And perhaps if Alice
> has contributed a conlang sentence with a translation into English,
> Bob could come along and add a translation of that sentence into
> Welsh, and Carol could add a translation of it into Hixkaryana, in
> addition to new sentences of their own with one or more natlang
> translations.  People viewing the site could choose to see only
> conlang sentences with translations into a natlang they know, or all
> sentences but only the translations into a natlang they know,

That's a lot of time and effort devoted to a sentence that is
ephemeral and will disappear from the corpus in a couple more days!

One alternative would be to have some fixed number of sentences, say
1000, covering as many different kinds of concepts and constructions
as possible, and present those sentences in English, Spanish, French,
Italian, Russian, Japanese, Korean, Marathi, Swahili, etc., etc.

The whole database of 1000 sentences could be pre-translated into
perhaps the top 10 languages. Then as new sentences are needed for the
corpus they are taken from this database and presented in all those
various languages (or in whichever single language a given participant
preferred). As the corpus grows, fewer sentences of the 1000 are left
hidden in reserve, until finally, all 1000 sentences are visible in
the current corpus and at that point the project is done, and the
language is "finished".

[---snip---]
>
> I like Gary's idea of gradually growing the corpus over time while
> still discarding the oldest sentences.  20 or even 100 sentences seems
> a little too small a corpus, but might be good to start with if we can
> grow it gradually (though I'd suggest growing the corpus at maybe a
> third the rate at which participants add new sentences, rather than
> 1/10 the rate).

I'm not sure what the rate of corpus growth should be. I jut picked a
number off the top of my head. That's a parameter that would have to
be fine tuned.

> Jim Henry

---------------------------------

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 1:39 AM, Nikolay Ivankov <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>   I don't know, how can this work for me.
>
>    I'm always starting from two different ends - pure grammar and pure
>    phonology, and then start matching them up by trying to create a lexicon.
>    I've never got far in creating lexicon, because, as an artlanging fan, I
>    love exceptions. And making exceptions suggests going at least one step
>    back, to a protolang where they still were rules. In case of Yanyarin it's
>    four steps back, but now I know precisely, why my words sound like I want
>    them to sound. As I'm still young, I can let myself not bother too much
>    about creating a conlang quickly, and focus on satisfying my tastes.
>
>    Well, that's how it works for me, at least )
>
>    Kolya

Obviously the method I'm suggesting is very different from the method
you prefer. My goal is not to _plan_ a conlang. Not one single user of
any natlang in the world ever sat down to plan the grammar or
phonology of their native language. Natlangs are "used into existence"
by people who do no planning and know nothing about linguistics.

This project might not even appeal to conlangers for the very reason
that it is NOT about planning a language, or any aspect of that
language, but is about using the language to do some short, easy
translations, keeping everything in your head for maximum fluidity or
instability.

Nothing is written down for the very reason that once it's written
down it becomes too rigid and inflexible. Language evolves when people
forget how something "is supposed to be" done, or how it was done in
years gone by. English lost case endings when people forgot how to use
case endings and started using word order instead. "Went" became the
past tense of "go" when people forgot that it used to be the past
tense of "wend". For a conlang to evolve stuff has to be forgotten,
discarded and replaced constantly. The mistake I made in my previous
collaborative conlang projects was that nothing was ever forgotten.
The whole corpus was always there like an anchor holding back all
growth and evolution.

This project is entirely based on the requirements that the language
be unplanned, that it be undocumented, and that it be kept maximally
fluid and unstable.

Don't forget that English took great leaps forward in evolution during
a period when few people could read or write and had to keep it all in
their heads. There was no massive corpus that fought back against
change, and when the kids "got it wrong" they created a new and better
language by doing so. (Yes, I know better than to claim one language
is better than another. I'm saying this for dramatic effect. Call it
poetic license in support of a cause!)

--gary

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