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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 1

CONLANG January 2013, Week 1

Subject:

Re: How to "grow" a conlang.

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:52:21 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (97 lines)

On Mon, 7 Jan 2013 09:54:56 -0800, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 7:26 AM, Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> I would suggest basing the corpus not exclusively on translated
>> sentences, but largely on originally composed sentences.  And, of
>> course, when translating, translate from different sources as you
>> suggest.
>
>I see two problems with that approach.

I think the benefits of original compositions outweigh these.  Particularly in the lexical domain, as Rick pointed out: if your first ten English sentences are about a "girl", then dollars to donuts the language being constructed will end up with a term which is basically a translation equivalent for "girl".  Because what can participants do but try to look up what was done earlier, and then all too often notice a word glossed "girl" and stop there?  I kinda suspect that no corpus-based method can avoid that difficulty, unless you had some explicit auxiliary tool to make it _easy_ (indeed _default_) to look up not an English gloss, but all sentences containing words in that region of semantic space that might or might not be glossed with the same English word.  

As for syntax, well, that seems to be a little less of a problem in practice, but I suspect that's (1) because making a properly different lexicon is an order of magnitude more work than making a properly different syntax; and (2) because the material being translated is often syntactically impoverished.  For whatever reason, people preparing language instructional materials tend to come up with sentences of this sort of over-controlled form, which are often just not very representative of real language use; you get pragmatically unnatural ones which scarcely anyone would ever need to say.  These have been called _postillion sentences_ (Crystal's article in the WP bibliography is good):
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_postillion_has_been_struck_by_lightning

For example, we had this discussion awhile back about the fact that explicit noun phrases (aot pronouns) are statistically rarish as subjects of transitives (and how that's not obvious as a fact): in actual discourses, subjects have a definite tendency already-introduced topics.  But the postillionate tradition ignores that, and throws out hosts of sentences like "The boy gave the cookie to the girl in the kitchen yesterday".  Working from that probably biasses your conlang not to have naturalistic-useful topic-tracking strategies.

Really, it'd be nice if the contributors could write _dialogues_ of various sorts in the course of construction, though one line at a time, to retain that part of the "easy to contribute" feel, probably.   A lot of conlangs don't give a lot of consideration to phenomena larger than the sentence, discourse-structuring phenomena and pragmatics and illocutionary force and all that.  So 

>First, that puts the burden on the participant to think of something
>original to say. For some people that can discourage them from
>participation. I've seen it happen with other collaborative projects,
>and in language classes where the teacher tells the student "Say
>something in Spanish." Errk! Brain freeze.

Maybe prompts (ignorable, for those who have better ideas) would be a good middle ground.  "In this language, how would you describe what your house looks like / order a coffee / explain how to fix a bicycle / try to get your boss to give you next Monday off / etc. etc."; they could of course be set more or less explicit, and suggesting shorter or longer responses.

>Second, with other collaborative projects I've done where original
>sentences were used some participants seemed to enjoy interjecting
>wildly improbable sentences. After someone has translated sentences
>like "John gave the book to Mary." and "I have three more cookies than
>you have.", the perverse participant would come along with something
>like "It is a tricky problem to find the particular calibration in
>timing that would be appropriate to stem the acceleration in risk
>premiums created by falling incomes without prematurely aborting the
>decline in the inflation-generated risk premiums."
>
>They would introduce lexicon items that nobody else would use in a
>million years, and constructions that could hardly be untangled. They
>would coin ridiculously complex terms from organic chemistry, or
>jargon specific to some branch of botany or internal medicine. Why, I
>can't imagine. The result was that the whole collaborative project
>fell apart under the weigh of a handful of show-offs.

You'll excuse me if I react a bit allergically to allegations of "showing off".  For my part, and for what I understand of other conlangers I know well, I just like to have a nerdy sort of fun with language, and composing intricate examples that use the rules in unexpected combinations is the most developed expression of this sort of nerdy fun.  In the few collaborative projects I've been in myself I've never acted for the sake of showing off, and if I'd been accused of it it would've smacked stingingly of anti-intellectualism, even if the intent behind it could've been a reasonable one, such as your "hey, try to stick to words someone else might ever reuse; every word you introduce is someone else's word consigned to oblivion".

The only collablang I know well of enough standing to make a statement about, Kalusa, wasn't killed by anything like this at all.  It was killed because its core following got few enough that it became vulnerable to explosions of essentially personal drama, one of which proved fatal.  Perhaps underlying this was the fact that it was hard to get into unless you were there from the start (witness late contributions that weren't even sentences), so there could be only attrition, not reinforcement, of the ranks.  Would this rolling window idea help that?

Beyond which, to be honest, I am _bored_ of the subject matter of material like McGuffey's, boys and girls playing with their balls in the park; similarly with that of many first courses in foreign languages, all books and teachers and desks and classrooms.  I'd rather not be stifled with it.

>On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 1:39 AM, Nikolay Ivankov <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>   I don't know, how can this work for me.
>>
>>    I'm always starting from two different ends - pure grammar and pure
>>    phonology, and then start matching them up by trying to create a lexicon.
>>    I've never got far in creating lexicon, because, as an artlanging fan, I
>>    love exceptions. And making exceptions suggests going at least one step
>>    back, to a protolang where they still were rules. In case of Yanyarin it's
>>    four steps back, but now I know precisely, why my words sound like I want
>>    them to sound. As I'm still young, I can let myself not bother too much
>>    about creating a conlang quickly, and focus on satisfying my tastes.
>>
>>    Well, that's how it works for me, at least )
>>
>>    Kolya
>
>Obviously the method I'm suggesting is very different from the method
>you prefer. My goal is not to _plan_ a conlang. Not one single user of
>any natlang in the world ever sat down to plan the grammar or
>phonology of their native language. Natlangs are "used into existence"
>by people who do no planning and know nothing about linguistics.
>
>This project might not even appeal to conlangers for the very reason
>that it is NOT about planning a language, or any aspect of that
>language, but is about using the language to do some short, easy
>translations, keeping everything in your head for maximum fluidity or
>instability.

I'd qualify a bit: the _experiment_ may be of interest, but I'd expect the resulting conlang qua language will not be very interesting to conlangers, because the more you rely on spontaneity the more you'll end up with holes being filled exactly the way they are filled in the contributor's L1.  That's what's behind the sort of influences you see in real-world language contact situations, after all.  Or, given that you are encouraging people to invent things, you'd have a good chance of ending up with (the same grammar but) new lexis -- again, that's the most common difference between registers, especially registers constructed to exclude outsiders (which gives an impetus for _intentional_ change, something otherwise generally lacking).

>Nothing is written down for the very reason that once it's written
>down it becomes too rigid and inflexible. Language evolves when people
>forget how something "is supposed to be" done, or how it was done in
>years gone by. [...]
>Don't forget that English took great leaps forward in evolution during
>a period when few people could read or write and had to keep it all in
>their heads. There was no massive corpus that fought back against
>change

Language evolves when people simplify paradigms or constructions which previous evolution has made too complex, or when they outright ditch a complex construction for a simple one that's simultaneously available, or when the way a different language known to most of the speakers does it ousts the original one, etc... but people don't just "forget" a word and make up from whole cloth a new one to replace it, for who else would understand them?  And there *is* a massive corpus of sorts: the many many more than 100 sentences (far more than you can expect a project participant to take up!) that had been heard before by each of the many other members of the speech community, who if they are competent with the old form have no particular reason to ditch it for the new one (though a whim of fashion might win the day for it).  

No-one learns language through writing, as it seems to me they'd need to for writing to have a properly chilling effect on language change; that's what we mean when we say speech has _primacy_.  What writing tends to bring with it is the establishment of a formal standard and the consequent downgrading in social class of the spoken form, which continues to evolve naturally as it always does -- though then there are inevitable influences between the two that muddy the waters, and we end up with the remarkable variety of patterns of diglossia.  

Alex

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June 2006, Week 1
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April 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 1
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June 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
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February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 3
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March 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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June 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
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January 2000, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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