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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 1

CONLANG January 2013, Week 1

Subject:

Re: How to "grow" a conlang.

From:

Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:06:06 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (114 lines)

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Jan 2013 09:54:56 -0800, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 7:26 AM, Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
[---snip---]
>
> I think the benefits of original compositions outweigh these.  Particularly
> in the lexical domain, as Rick pointed out: if your first ten English
> sentences are about a "girl", then dollars to donuts the language being
> constructed will end up with a term which is basically a translation
> equivalent for "girl".

I think many conlangers would be capable of things like "woman-child"
or putting a diminutive ending on "woman", or deciding that the "girl"
is a peasant serving wench.

> Because what can participants do but try to look up what was done earlier,
> and then all too often notice a word glossed "girl" and stop there?

What is the "gloss" you speak of? The rules expressly forbid glosses.

[---snip---]


> Maybe prompts (ignorable, for those who have better ideas) would be a
> good middle ground.  "In this language, how would you describe what
> your house looks like / order a coffee / explain how to fix a bicycle
> / try to get your boss to give you next Monday off / etc. etc."; they
> could of course be set more or less explicit, and suggesting shorter
> or longer responses.
>
Or define a specific domain, like a rural town with farms and farmer's
markets. The conlang would be purpose-built for buying and selling
produce and animals. That's a pretty limited domain, but when you want
to model a complex process doesn't it make sense to restrict the
model? Look at "Blocks World"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocks_world

[---snip---]

>
> You'll excuse me if I react a bit allergically to allegations of "showing off".
>  For my part, and for what I understand of other conlangers I know well,
> I just like to have a nerdy sort of fun with language, and composing
> intricate examples that use the rules in unexpected combinations is
> the most developed expression of this sort of nerdy fun.

Granted, but if the specific objective of an experiment is to evolve
ordinary day-to-day discourse in a conlang then intricate examples are
not appropriate to the experiment.

[---snip---]

> The only collablang I know well of enough standing to make a statement
> about, Kalusa, wasn't killed by anything like this at all.  It was killed
> because its core following got few enough that it became vulnerable to
> explosions of essentially personal drama, one of which proved fatal.
>  Perhaps underlying this was the fact that it was hard to get into unless
> you were there from the start [---snip---]  Would this rolling window idea
> help that?

I think it very well could. A newcomer to the project only has 20 or
30 sentences to refer to. And each newcomer could contribute
innovations that old-timers hadn't thought of. They would be like the
kids that make up new slang to the eternal consternation of the old
fogies who complain that kids don't know how to speak properly.

> Beyond which, to be honest, I am _bored_ of the subject matter of
> material like McGuffey's, boys and girls playing with their balls in the
> park; similarly with that of many first courses in foreign languages,
> all books and teachers and desks and classrooms.  I'd rather not be
> stifled with it.

Participation would, of course, be voluntary. ;-)

[---snip---]

[---snip---]
> ... but people don't just "forget" a word and make up from whole cloth a new
> one to replace it, for who else would understand them?  And there *is*
> a massive corpus of sorts: the many many more than 100 sentences (far
> more than you can expect a project participant to take up!) that had been
> heard before by each of the many other members of the speech community,
> who if they are competent with the old form have no particular reason to ditch
> it for the new one (though a whim of fashion might win the day for it).

Good point. But this thought experiment is really mean to to be
nothing more than an over-simplified model of language evolution. It's
a toy. It's just for fun. Whether the language would be interesting to
conlangers, as you mentioned (in the snipped portion) is irrelevant.
And I guess what I'm suggesting is not really conlanging at all. Who
know WHAT it is? I don't know.

But at any rate, I think, as a solo project, it still might be fun to
try. For me, anyway.
It might even be interesting to start with a picture. Something from a
children's book, like a farmyard scene with lots of different animals
in it. The first 100 sentences could be describing or talking about
anything in the picture, but could not mention anything not pictured.

Then a second picture is added. Maybe the kitchen inside the farmer's
house, and another 100 sentences created. No English, No Spanish, no
models, just a pictured domain. Then a picture of a railroad train in
the station with passengers coming and going. Then, 100 sentence later
add a picture of a factory or whatever, enlarging the domain
gradually, starting with something as restricted as "Blocks World" and
gradually expanding.

Maybe it wouldn't work as a collaborative project. That was really
just an afterthought. But as a solo project I think it would be fun.

--gary

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