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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 2

CONLANG January 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Neanderthals again

From:

George Corley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 12 Jan 2013 15:54:38 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (82 lines)

On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 3:36 PM, BPJ <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On 2013-01-12 07:40, George Corley wrote:
>
>>
>> Very good points.  Though it might be noted that there are extant human
>> groups that have never developed writing nor wheels.  Whether any of these
>> groups never developed art I wouldn't know. I would say that it is
>> certainly a data point in determining their cognitive abilities --
>> alongside their smaller toolsets and lack of long-distance trade.  That's
>> not to say any one of these things prove anything, or even that all the
>> data we have even points in the same direction, but it all has to be
>> considered.
>>
>
> Actually any *absence* of a cultural trait is open to the
> perhaps-just-not-invented argument. It's just not scientific
> to speculate ex absentia, though it may be that Wikipedia
> authors present scientists' rundown of the possibilities
> as their conclusions, but if not the scientists are at fault.
> There is nothing wrong in admitting unknowability.
> I would give greater weight to the fact that Neanderthal
> industry changed very little for hundreds of thousands of years,
> but that too may possibly have been due to cultural rather
> than cognitive traits.  We just *can't* know.


We can't  know for certain, but we can make educated guesses.  In a way,
that's mostly what science is about -- making educated guesses based on
evidence and determining which is the most likely



> We do need to find ways to categorize, though.  We know that Neanderthals
>> had significant physical differences from modern humans, and there were
>> several other human species who also had differences from us.  The fact
>> that there is evidence of interbreeding between Neanderthals and modern
>> humans, indicating that the two groups possibly belong to the same
>> species.
>>
>
> As I said my concern is primarily linguistic more than
> anything else, and I'm certainly L1 influenced here too:
> Swedish has a distinction between _man_ 'male human' and
> _människa_ 'human' going back many centuries, and it has
> been customary to talk about _neandertalmänniskor_ (and
> "pekinmänniskor" -> _erectusmänniskor_ etc. in Swedish.
> It's possible (and interesting) that native speaker
> semantics of English _human_ and Swedish _människa_
> may actually differ.


That is interesting.  The fact is that the definition of English "human"
isn't set in stone.  I think anthropologists still fight each other about
precisely how inclusive it should be technically (as I said before, I've
actually heard the term applied to australopithecenes, which is a much
broader definition than anyone on this list has proposed).  I think
applying it to genus Homo is pretty useful, for certain.



> I also think that there had to be some intermediate stage between animal
>> communication and language, but there's really not enough data to find
>> when
>> that might of occurred.  It's entirely possible that it happened the same
>> way a lot of "transitional periods" do -- with rapid innovation causing
>> the
>> intermediate forms to appear and disappear within thousands rather than
>> millions of years, meaning that the creatures who spoke these pidgins may
>> not even have left behind fossil evidence.
>>
>>
> That's a good point. Much what I have believed for a long time without
> setting it in the larger context.  I'm also inclined to believe it all
> predated toolmaking, and it was most of all a
> cognitive change.


There's no way it predated toolmaking, as there are non-linguistic animals
who make and use tools (chimpanzees have been observed making a variety of
tools, and it's been shown that their designs are even culturally learned).

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