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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 2

CONLANG January 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: human language origins

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 22:38:58 +0100

Content-Type:

Text/Plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

Text/Plain (143 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On Sunday 13 January 2013 22:01:50 R A Brown wrote:

> Macnabit - just when we get interesting threads on Conlang,
> some on another list I subscribe to is claiming that the
> language behind Linear A is Japanese!!

Good grief!  Will that nonsense *ever* stop?  What is the ratio
between reasonable members and crackpots like, is it worth staying
on that list?  I recently left a historical linguistics mailing
list because it turned out that the group consensus was Paleolithic
Continuity, i.e., the claim that PIE was spoken by the first _Homo
sapiens_ in Europe ca. 40,000 years ago.  Yikes!
 
> I'm afraid I've got rather occupied with that bit of idiocy
> and just haven't been able to keep up with all the Conlang
> emails     :(
> 
> But I did spot this, and I'll reply briefly.
> 
> On 12/01/2013 20:34, And Rosta wrote:
> [snip]
> 
> > I think it's possible to have a rational, informative
> > and fruitful discussion about Neanderthal communication
> > without having to have a debate about epistemology
> > instead.
> 
> Just when I'm finding it difficult to keep up   :(
> [snip]
> 
> > My ill-informed but nevertheless reasoned conjectures
> > are as follows:
> > 
> > Stage 1. Apesong -- partly innate, and the origin of
> > syntagmatic phonological structure in modern human
> > language. (Innateness strikes me as the best explanation
> > for cross-linguistic similarities in phonological
> > syntagmatics.)
> 
> I won't get into arguments about innateness, and whether it
> has some Platonic implication here.  But, yes, I basically
> go along with this.

Certainly, there are some things in human language that are shared
by *all* human languages, and many of them are probably indeed
innate.  But we should leave the cork on the bottle with the
Platonic genie ;)
 
> > Stage 2. Naming. Assignment of meanings to apesong
> > patterns, to yield lexical symbols. This could be a
> > product of general intelligence and cultural rather than
> > biological evolution, since an impulse to communicate
> > will lead to creation of names.
> > 
> > Stage 3. Predication (subject--predication relation).
> > This could yield two-word 'sentences'. AFAICS there's no
> > basis for predication in logic or general human
> > cognition, yet predication seems pretty universal, so I
> > conjecture it's innate.
> 
> I find Stage 3 unconvincing (not even certain about Stage 2).

Chimps at least manage what And calls "Stage 2", and I think
also "Stage 3".  They do not yet have syntax, but can express
the order "Give me a banana!" by striking keys labeled with
symbols for "me", "give" and "banana" in random orders, striking
them again for more emphasis.  This is lexicon without syntax,
I would say.  This is what I call a "linear language".
 
> > Stage 4. Syntax (proper) and morphology. I conjecture
> > this evolved through the 'holistic' method of perceiving
> > systematicity in originally coincidental similarities of
> > sound--meaning patterns across words. This requires
> > massive levels of creativity, both to evolve the system
> > in the first place, and then for each individual to
> > puzzle it out through exposure to it.
> 
> OK.
> 
> > I conjecture that Neanderthals were at Stage 2 or 3, and 
> > Stage 4 marks the transition to modern humans:
> Why?  Why were Neanderthals unable to reach Stage 4?   that,
> I guess, is the major difference between our positions.

I think Neanderthals already had syntax.  But there is something
more to human languages which And has not mentioned: recursion.
We can form clauses that contain other clauses, noun phrases that
contain other noun phrases, etc.  Human languages do not have
formal limits of how deep their syntactic structures can be nested,
though the limits of human short term memory constrain these in
practice.

You can have syntax without recursion (some older programming
languages such as BASIC or assembly languages lack recursion, but
they do have syntax nevertheless), but such a "language" (I call
it a "hierarchical language") would be much more limited than full-
fledged human language with recursion.  We don't know when recursion
occured in the evolution of human language, but it probably was a
good deal later than syntax.  Maybe Neanderthals did not yet have
recursion.

> On 13/01/2013 11:23, And Rosta wrote:[snip]
> 
> > One argument in favour of the cavemanese approach,
> > whereby through a process of biological evolution
> > pertaining to the innate language faculty syntax grows
> > pidginlike from two-word sentences to three-word
> > sentences and so on to ever more complicated patterns
> 
> All my grandchildren were quite different in the way they
> acquired speech.  One in particular, used to go around
> chattering away in a seemingly meaning string of half-sung
> syllables.  I remember his Dad observing that youngster
> clearly thought he speaking.  But all the time most of his
> conversation was directed at his play, it went on like this.
>   Then came the momentous day when he uttered, not merely his
> first word, but his first sentence as he turned to his Dad
> and said "I need track!" (he was plating with a toy
> railway/railroad).

Charming.
 
> It's young Daniel's pre-"I need track" speech that I imagine
> "proto-Humanese" developed from.  But it seems to me that
> youngsters are absorbing words and speech patters from
> adults.  Proto-humans could not do that, so taking
> children's speech development as a pattern for language
> development among proto-Humans has to be taken only as a
> very rough guide at best IMO.

It is controversial whether ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny,
but guesses based on language development in children are about
as good as can be made when it goes to language evolution, I think.
Things would be easier if we had surviving _Paranthropus_, _Homo
erectus_ and _Homo neanderthalensis_ specimens to observe ;)

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"BÍsel asa …am, a …am atha cvanthal a cvanth atha …amal." - SiM 1:1

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