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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 2

CONLANG January 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: human language origins

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:30:04 +0100

Content-Type:

Text/Plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

Text/Plain (162 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On Monday 14 January 2013 02:52:48 And Rosta wrote:

> R A Brown, On 13/01/2013 21:01:
> [...]
> > On 12/01/2013 20:34, And Rosta wrote:
> > [...]
> >> I conjecture that Neanderthals were at Stage 2 or 3, and
> >> Stage 4 marks the transition to modern humans:
> > Why? Why were Neanderthals unable to reach Stage 4? that,
> > I guess, is the major difference between our positions.
> 
> I tried to spell out my reasoning in the snipped material -- probably I
> spelt it out poorly. If we equate the intellectual genius involved in
> creating and learning language with the creativity modern humans have and
> neanderthals appear to lack, we have can account for the two developments
> (cultural and linguistic) with a single cause.

Modern humans indeed seem to be qualitatively more imaginative
and creative than Neanderthals, judging from the evidence from
material artifacts; and this was probably reflected in (though
not necessarily caused by) the kind of languages the two species
used.  The question is, *which* feature is what Neanderthal
languages lack.  You argue that it is syntax, but syntax-less
"languages" seem too limited for a species capable of what _Homo
neanderthalensis_ was evidently capable of.  My guess (and I am
aware that it is just a *guess*) is recursion.  Or perhaps an
open vocabulary.  Or both together - I don't know.  But there
*must* have been some kind of limitation in the languages of
such hidebound creatures, otherwise they would have been able
to talk about things they could not think about, which is of
course absurd.

Yet, the notion of hidebound Neanderthals is an uncertain one;
they certainly weren't the primitive brutes as which they were
portrayed in the days of our grandfathers, but still, the apparent
complete absence of evidence for fine arts from their archaeological
remains is something that cannot easily be swept aside.  (Also, let
us not forget that we did not evolve from Neanderthals; they were
our cousins, not our ancestors, at least not to a major degree.
They may have had their own innovations in language evolution which
may have been different from ours.)

>       Additionally, if the genius
> for complex language came first, with the powers of analysis,
> pattern-finding, abductive reasoning and creativity that it entails, it's
> hard to see how it could not rub off on neanderthal culture.

Surely so.

>       Remember that
> I maintain that neanderthal (pre-)language was not an ineffectual tool for
> communication: it could have had an enormous vocabulary, and neanderthals
> could have had human-like pragmatic abilities (or better, even).

Certainly, Neanderthal languages were much above stereotypical
"caveman talk", but as I have said above, there must have been a
qualitative difference in complexity, otherwise you would get
Neanderthals capable of talking about things they could not think
about.
 
> [...]
> JŲrg Rhiemeier, On 13/01/2013 21:38:
> [...]
> > Chimps at least manage what And calls "Stage 2", and I think
> > also "Stage 3".  They do not yet have syntax, but can express
> > the order "Give me a banana!" by striking keys labeled with
> > symbols for "me", "give" and "banana" in random orders, striking
> > them again for more emphasis.  This is lexicon without syntax,
> > I would say.  This is what I call a "linear language".
> 
> Interesting. What's the evidence for chimps managing Stage 3?

Isn't the "give me banana" example evidence enough?  Obviously,
that chimpanzee managed to connect the concepts of "me", "give"
and "banana" into a single utterance, even if there does not
seem to be much of a well-defined syntax yet.  That is, if I
understand your definitions properly, Stage 3.
 
> >>> I conjecture that Neanderthals were at Stage 2 or 3, and
> >> 
> >>> Stage 4 marks the transition to modern humans:
> >> Why?  Why were Neanderthals unable to reach Stage 4?   that,
> >> I guess, is the major difference between our positions.
> > 
> > I think Neanderthals already had syntax.  But there is something
> > more to human languages which And has not mentioned: recursion.
> > We can form clauses that contain other clauses, noun phrases that
> > contain other noun phrases, etc.  Human languages do not have
> > formal limits of how deep their syntactic structures can be nested,
> > though the limits of human short term memory constrain these in
> > practice.
> > 
> > You can have syntax without recursion (some older programming
> > languages such as BASIC or assembly languages lack recursion, but
> > they do have syntax nevertheless), but such a "language" (I call
> > it a "hierarchical language") would be much more limited than full-
> > fledged human language with recursion.  We don't know when recursion
> > occured in the evolution of human language, but it probably was a
> > good deal later than syntax.  Maybe Neanderthals did not yet have
> > recursion.
> 
> I did respond in another message to your mention of recursion. AFAICS a
> language that allows recursion (as you've defined it, i.e. XPs containing
> XPs) is simpler than a language that forbids it -- simpler as a system,
> and no more costly in processing.

Is it?  A hierarchical language, which has a small finite number
of levels in the syntax tree, is easier to parse than a recursive
one.  Note that in programming languages, recursive structures
were only introduced in 1960 by ALGOL 60, while earlier
programming languages did not have them - the technology of
programming language parsing was not up to this before the late
1950s.  Of course, Neanderthal languages weren't programming
languages, and perhaps I am barking up the wrong tree with the
idea that Neanderthal languages lacked recursion, and the key
difference is somewhere else.

>        I can't see any basis for suggesting
> recursion as the difference (other than as an homage to Chomsky et al) --
> why would neanderthal language lack recursion, and what basis do we have
> for suggesting it did?

Recursive languages may get by with fewer rules than non-recursive
ones, but they require more "circuitry" to process them because
there is no set limit of parse tree depth, and structures can
become amazingly complex.  I have taken a class in compiler design
in university, and I can tell you that hierarchical languages are
a good deal easier to process than recursive ones because the parse
tree cannot grow in depth beyond a fixed limit.

From that point, it seems reasonable to assume that recursion is
an innovation that was later than syntax.  From what I know about
language development in children (I don't know much, having no
children of my own, but Ray, being a grandfather, can certainly
say something about this), they start with simple two- and three-
word sentences, and recursive structures such as relative clauses
come much later.
 
> There are theories of grammar that take isomorphism between the
> syntagmatics of phonology and the syntagmatics of syntax as the null
> hypothesis (e.g. Glossematics, Notional Grammar, early Government
> Phonology and Dependency Phonology), and (Onset (Nucleus Coda)) structure
> has been proposed as the evolutionary origin of (S (V O))
> (Carstairs-McCarthy). If the earliest syntactic syntagmatics was a copy of
> phonological syntagmatics, then we would indeed expect earliest syntax to
> lack recursion, since phonological syntagmatics does. But I don't find the
> syntax--phonology isomorphism idea at all persuasive.

Syntax and phonology are different in the latter not involving
recursion.  Phonemes do not consist of phonemes, and morphemes
do not consist of morphemes.  Morphemes consist of phonemes, and
phonemes consist of phonological features.  Morphology *can* be
recursive, as Sanskrit multi-member compounds and Eskimo postbase
chains demonstrate.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"BÍsel asa …am, a …am atha cvanthal a cvanth atha …amal." - SiM 1:1

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November 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 3
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October 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
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December 2002, Week 1
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October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
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September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
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April 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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