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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 2

CONLANG January 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Introductory Linguistics Assignment

From:

MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:12:26 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (75 lines)

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:50 AM, George Corley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 9:08 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >
> >> Now, if you are thinking "learnable by humans or similar beings", then I
> >> would agree -- it is possible to have a language that human beings would
> >> not be able to learn.  But I don't think that's the point of that design
> >> feature -- it's not that it's "learnable" by any specific entity, it's
> >> that
> >> it is transmitted through cultural learning rather than genetically.
> >>
> >
> > I think you characterize that criterion correctly. But the question is:
> In
> > a universe in which English was spoken only by robots in whom the rules
> of
> > English were hardwired, would English not be a language? In my view,
> > English is English, regardless of how its speakers come to know it.
>
>
>  Ah, but if the whole language is hard-wired,


The assumption was that the RULES of English are hardwired. Nothing was
said about vocabulary.

stevo


> then the robots would be
> unable to coin new words, which hampers productiveness.  I think the whole
> issue of language being culturally learned dovetails with the productivity
> feature.  As far as whether your hypothetical robots are speaking English
> -- it's tricky.  Do current voice recognition systems like Siri
> speak/understand English, albeit imperfectly?  I don't know much about the
> programming of those systems, but my guess is that most of what they do is
> find key words and do specific functions based on those.  But even with the
> yet-to-be developed technology for computers to truly parse and comprehend
> human grammar, I think the ability to learn new words and structures will
> be necessary for these systems to really have language as humans have it.
>
> It's an interesting gray area to explore, and we are only going to see more
> and more real-world scenarios approaching this particular philosophical
> problem.
>
> On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 10:11 PM, Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >
> > But Hockett's principles (which is what we're working on tomorrow, in an
> > abbreviated version -- hey, there's finally an 11th edition of Language
> > Files!) don't strike me as all ideal (in the Platonic sense).  For
> example,
> > a perfectly good system of communication might exist that isn't
> arbitrary;
> > but if it does, it's not human.  Similarly, very effective systems of
> > communication exist that aren't productive.  Bees, for example.  But if
> > linguists had to spend their time looking at bees wiggle, we'd be
> > entomologists (and I'm more interested in etymology).  So by saying
> > "productive!" we can get rid of a lot of communication systems that
> aren't
> > human, and focus on one that is.
>
>
> Is the goal to find the communication system humans use, or study this
> particularly complex communication system that we just happen to only
> observe in humans.  I really feel there's something more to language as a
> system than just "humans do it and nothing else".  That is a quite
> fascinating part of the issue, and it is interesting that no other animal
> has achieved this incredibly evolutionary advantage (to our knowledge), but
> I feel like just saying "what do humans do, how do we exclude everything
> else" isn't totally the right way to define things.  We might yet find some
> loquent aliens somewhere.
>

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