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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 2

CONLANG January 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Neanderthals again

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 11:23:08 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (145 lines)

Jörg Rhiemeier, On 11/01/2013 16:31:
> On Friday 11 January 2013 14:40:46 R A Brown wrote:
>> On 11/01/2013 11:24, BPJ wrote:
>>> On 2013-01-10 19:50, And Rosta wrote:
>>>> My own view is that pre-h,-sapiens-sapiens had
>>>> something similar to human language that wasn't
>>>> actually language, something tantamount to a lexicon
>>>> without syntax (or morphology).
>>
>> Certainly having lexemes without syntax is not human
>> language.
>
> Certainly not!  This is what I call a "linear" language:
> a communication system where lexemes are just uttered in a
> random order to express an idea.  Chimpanzees can do that;
> that has been proven in numerous experiments.

If you were to replace "random" by "not rule-governed (but perhaps governed by general cognitive principles)" then we're broadly in agreement.

Some natlangs might be syntaxless:

1. Riau Indonesian, as discussed by David Gil in "How much grammar does it take to sail a boat", which I've mentioned here before. This is morphologyless and almost syntaxless.
<email.eva.mpg.de/~gil/complexity/abstracts/Gil.pdf>
<https://apps.lis.illinois.edu/wiki/download/attachments/9340/gil08howmuch.pdf>

2. Mohawk. I've been told that Marianne Mithun has argued that Mohawk has lots of morphology and no syntax. (I don't have a reference for that.)

3. BSL. IMO there's a fair argument to be made that BSL has morphology but no syntax. (I'm not convinced there's no syntax, but it's a right bugger to try and prove that there is syntax.) BSL is the only SL I know anything about. It seems likely that other SLs are similar in this regard.

R A Brown, On 11/01/2013 17:41:
> On 11/01/2013 16:31, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>> On Friday 11 January 2013 14:40:46 R A Brown wrote:
>>> Certainly having lexemes without syntax is not human language.
>>
>> Certainly not! This is what I call a "linear" language: a
>> communication system where lexemes are just uttered in a random
>> order to express an idea.
>
> But if the order is truly random, how is the hearer to know how the
> lexemes relate to one another? Surely ambiguity would make all but
> the very basic utterances impossible. Can one indeed have _language_
> without syntax?

The syntaxless 'languages' rely heavily on pragmatics, but of course all languages rely heavily on pragmatics in various ways (disambiguation, enrichment of logical form, derivation of conversational implicatures...).

I've no objection to saying that having a syntax is criterial for being a language, in the species-neutral sense of 'language' based on optimal design features. But in that case it may be that some 'natlangs', in the sense of primary human communication systems, aren't 'languages'.

Jörg Rhiemeier, On 11/01/2013 16:31:
>>        Even the comic-book stereotypical "cavemanese"
>> has some sort of syntax.
>
> And real Neanderthal languages certainly were more complex
> than that!

You may be right that they were more complex than that, but you're not right about the certainty.

> My personal guess is that the languages of Neanderthals and other
> species of _Homo_ other than _Homo sapiens_ had what I call
> "hierarchical" languages, in which utterances were made of clauses
> made of words etc., but what was still missing was recursion.

I presume you were persuaded by Hauser, Chomsky & Fitch
<www.chomsky.info/articles/20021122.pdf>, which suprises me given your wonted antipathy to Chomsky (or does his move towards biolinguistics find favour with you?).

I am deeply skeptical. A first small step towards  persuading me would be to provide a coherent definition of recursionthat is relevant to the issue at hand.

> There was a fixed number of syntactic levels (may have been as low as
> 3 in early _Homo erectus_ but as high as 5 or 6 in Neanderthals), but
> no way something could contain something of the same kind.

A grammar that restricts the number of levels is more complex than one that doesn't. A grammar that prohibits something of Category X from containing something else of Category X is much more complex than a grammar that doesn't -- it's complex not only because extra rules add extra complexity but also because it requires phrases to be categorized.

Therefore your ideas here strike me as implausible.

Jörg Rhiemeier, On 11/01/2013 18:14:
> On Friday 11 January 2013 18:41:55 R A Brown wrote:
>> On 11/01/2013 16:31, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>>> On Friday 11 January 2013 14:40:46 R A Brown wrote:
>> But if the order is truly random, how is the hearer to know
>> how the lexemes relate to one another?  Surely ambiguity
>> would make all but the very basic utterances impossible.
>
> Indeed, only very simple utterances are possible in such a
> linear language.  Even simple transitive sentences such as
> "the hunter killed the lion" are beyond the capabilities of
> such a "language": without context, you cannot tell who
> killed whom!  Only when you see whether what your fellows
> drag home is the body of a lion or of a hunter, you know ;)

You say what is necessary to make yourself understood... E.g. "Hunter. Spear. Lion. Stab. Dead." vs. "Hunter. Lion. Maul. Dead.".

Or indeed: "Lion. SlayingByHunter." vs. "Hunter. SlayingByLion." A syntaxless 'language' of speakers with good memories might have lots more words than syntaxful languages need. I see Amanda has pointed out the same thing in another reply.

R A Brown, On 12/01/2013 11:01:
> Once we are into sequencing, we have syntax!

In the sense of the term "syntax" as I've been using it, syntax pertains to grammatical rules governing ordering and other syntagmatic relations between multiple words in the same sentence, but not to ordering relations between sentences. The hypothetical (almost-)grammarless pre-modern-human lg has only one-word sentences (at Phase 2 in my model).

> On 12/01/2013 04:39, Amanda Babcock Furrow wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 07:14:59PM +0100, Jörg Rhiemeier
> [snip]
>>
>> They could also have "Warrior enemy felled-by" vs.
>> "Warrior enemy got-one",
>
> Ah, passive versus active verbs. Yes it could be done by
> the lexicon and not by morphology. But I cannot help
> noticing that both sentences are of the SOV order - i.e.
> _syntax_ is being used.

Some word-orders or sentence-orders are pragmatically more natural than others, following principles that are not syntactic but narrative. For example, in BSL the normal order is OSV -- more static participant, then more active participant, then action; but if the O is effected (e.g. "bake a cake") the order is SVO -- actor, action, product of action.

[...]
> It has long seemed to me that language may have developed out of
> babble of apparently aimless chatter or of singing before becoming
> formalized as language as we know it. I really must read Professor
> Steven Miten's "The Singing Neanderthals." :)
>
>  From what I have read about it, it seems much more in accord
> with the way I've vaguely thought about things.

If you do get round to reading it, please give us a quick report. I doubt I'll have time to read it any time soon, but like yours my favoured hypothesis has language originating from apesong.

Amanda Babcock Furrow, On 12/01/2013 17:24:
> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:01:47AM +0000, R A Brown wrote:
>> It has long seemed to me that language may have developed out of
>> babble of apparently aimless chatter or of singing before becoming
>> formalized as language as we know it.
>
> But primates have call systems.  Why would proto-humans
> have discarded theirs?  Do you propose that the separate
> singing-system could have evolved into language *without*
> being influenced by a parallel and unrelated call system?

To my ears, primate calls sound like screeches, yawps and howls. Humans have song and phonology. Once song acquired lexicality (i.e. chunks of song assigned conventionalized meaning), screeches, yawps and howls would become superfluous, tho perhaps they survive today in cries of fear, roars of triumph, and laughter.

R A Brown, On 13/01/2013 08:17:
> It's just that I don't find 'cavemanese' very convincing.

One argument in favour of the cavemanese approach, whereby through a process of biological evolution pertaining to the innate language faculty syntax grows pidginlike from two-word sentences to three-word sentences and so on to ever more complicated patterns, is the ontogeny recapitulating phylogeny phenomenon: it's what we see in children's speech production. However, on the phonological side of things it's clear that children's phonological comprehension is far in advance of their phonological production, and it seems probable that the same goes for syntax. Furthermore, the language-learning task is primarily a comprehension problem, and while the puzzling-out process of lg learning is still in full flux, one can't necessarily take the speech produced as evidence of where the comprehension process has got to.

(I do think that ontogeny could be recapitulating phylogeny up to and including the two-word stage, tho.)

--And.

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April 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
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February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
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June 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 3
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March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
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January 2000, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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