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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 2

CONLANG January 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Neanderthals again

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 14:58:13 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (59 lines)

George Corley, On 13/01/2013 11:59:
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 5:23 AM, And Rosta<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>>   There was a fixed number of syntactic levels (may have been as low as
>>> 3 in early _Homo erectus_ but as high as 5 or 6 in Neanderthals), but
>>> no way something could contain something of the same kind.
>>
>> A grammar that restricts the number of levels is more complex than one
>> that doesn't. A grammar that prohibits something of Category X from
>> containing something else of Category X is much more complex than a grammar
>> that doesn't -- it's complex not only because extra rules add extra
>> complexity but also because it requires phrases to be categorized.
>>
>> Therefore your ideas here strike me as implausible.
>
> I think it's more that they couldn't do more than a certain level of
> embedding for cognitive reasons.  There are seemingly well-formed sentences
> that native speakers find hard to process due to cognitive load -- it's
> possible that there's some limit to embedding based on this, just as we
> know center embedding causes problems.  It wouldn't be a hard limit, though.

If they did have more than two-word sentences, then yes it's plausible that their processing was governed by constraints severer than modern humans'. It would be interesting to speculate what the severer constraints might be -- if only to outline the range of plausible candidates. A constraint on the number of levels (whereby each added level cumulatively adds processing load) or against XPs containing XPs strikes me as not very plausible tho (because I don't see why they'd add processing load), tho I'm open to being persuaded otherwise.

>> Amanda Babcock Furrow, On 12/01/2013 17:24:
>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 11:01:47AM +0000, R A Brown wrote:
>>>
>>>> It has long seemed to me that language may have developed out of
>>>> babble of apparently aimless chatter or of singing before becoming
>>>> formalized as language as we know it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> But primates have call systems.  Why would proto-humans
>>> have discarded theirs?  Do you propose that the separate
>>> singing-system could have evolved into language *without*
>>> being influenced by a parallel and unrelated call system?
>>
>> To my ears, primate calls sound like screeches, yawps and howls. Humans
>> have song and phonology. Once song acquired lexicality (i.e. chunks of song
>> assigned conventionalized meaning), screeches, yawps and howls would become
>> superfluous, tho perhaps they survive today in cries of fear, roars of
>> triumph, and laughter.
>
> I think focusing too hard on the different phonetic forms of these systems
> is a little shallow.  There's no reason to think that the system behind the
> "screeches, yaps, and howls" could not have influenced the linguistic
> system.  Also consider that other primates are physically incapable of the
> full range of sounds that humans can make, so it is totally unsurprising
> that none of their animal calls sound like human linguistic sounds.

I wasn't focusing on phonetics. Song and phonology are compositional, are governed by a combinatorics that combines primitive components into syntagms. I gather that birdsong is like that too.

> Even if these calls themselves evolved into non-linguistic signals in
> humans, the cognitive machinery behind them might be partly related to
> language.

Do you have anything in particular in mind? It seems plausible that if our ancestors already had apesong and were growing in intelligence and, being social, therefore had a growing need to communicate more sorts of thing, that might have created a functional pressure to move from a necessarily small set of simplex primate calls to a potentially endless set of signs whose signanses were chunks of apesong. In that case, primate calls could be the origin of the move to adding signification to apesong.

--And.

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