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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 3

CONLANG January 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: On Compounding

From:

MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 04:03:50 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (91 lines)

On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 12:43 AM, George Corley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 20:23:51 -0500, MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 8:18 PM, George Corley <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 7:09 PM, David Peterson <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > I found a paper that does a fairy summary of the types of
> compounding,
> > >> and
> > >> > provides some interesting examples of natlang compounds (e.g.
> > apparently
> > >> > the word for "thing" in Mandarin is a compound of "east" + "west").
> > You
> > >> can
> > >> > read it here:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
> http://www3.nacos.com/lsj/modules/documents/LSJpapers/journals/135_scalise.pdf
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Yes. I'd forgotten how odd that was when I learned 东西.
> > >>
> > >
> > >I suspect that the word was coincidentally pronounced the same way, and
> so
> > >the characters for "east" and "west" were arbitrarily associated with
> it.
> > >I doubt it's originally really a compound, although now, of course, it
> is,
> > >at least in writing.
> >
> > What do you mean by "really a compound"?
> >
> > Anyway, my money would be on that this compount really was semantically
> > "east" + "west", originally, and I can imagine a development like "east
> and
> > west" > "from east to west" > "the whole range" > "every (kind of)
> thing" >
> > "any (kind of) thing" > "thing". Your coincidence hypothesis could be
> > ruled out if we have early enough attestations of the compound when fewer
> > characters have merged. In theory it might could be ruled out by
> > attestations in other varieties with different mergers, but graphic
> > borrowings might also cause that so I'd be cautious (maybe depends
> whether
> > it's a colloquial or literary sort of word in those other varieties).
> >
> > -- Ah, someone purports that
> > http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/%E4%B8%9C%E8%A5%BF contains the actual
> > etymology. But I can't read it to judge.
>
>
> Characters can be coined as well, making it odd that it has survived
> without being reanalyzed. The Wikipedia article you cite mentions examples
> going back to the Song dynasty. I'm not sure if the yellow highlighting is
> something you or someone else are pointing out, but it looks like a quite
> from a classic work. My translation:
>
> "Southern Song rationalist Zhu Xi visited his friend Sheng Wenru. Zhu
> asked Sheng, "What are you going to do?" and Shen replied "I'm going to buy
> stuff (买东西 mai2 dong1xi1 "buy east-west")" Zhu, baffled, asked "Buy
> east-west? Why not buy south-north*?" Shen replied, "East is wood and west
> is metal, and wood and metal I can put in my basket. South is fire and
> north is water, so how am I supposed to put them in the basket? Thus, I
> can only buy east-west, not south-north?" Thus the word *dongxi* spread."
>
> Sounds like a folk etymology to me, or possibly someone joking about the
> word by riffing on the Daoist elements (a note: the fifth element -- earth
> -- is associated with the center). I'm having trouble reading other parts
> of the page, but it seems to be mostly noting other early citations of the
> word and several dictionaries' explanations.
>
> * (Traditional ordering of cardinal directions in Chinese follows two
> patterns: east-south-west-north or east-west-south-north, so the fact that
> south comes first is expected.)
>

South was preferred over north because good/warm weather came from the
south. Thus ancient maps have south at the top.

stevo

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