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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 3

CONLANG January 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Word Limit

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:38:39 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (51 lines)

On Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:22:11 -0500, Matthew Martin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Good points, I'll address a few.
>
>> Having a closed class of content words is a downright anomalous property for a _language_ to have.
>Languages where the set of verbs stems is closed do happen, in fact I posted the link to the paper on this mailing list recently.

Mhmm, but this is a much less drastic thing, just a redistribution of the semantic workload that goes to each part of speech. If I speak such a language and I want to borrow a verb from another language, all I need to do is borrow its nominalisation and construe that with one of the light verbs I already have: don't borrow "converse", borrow "conversation" and then say "do conversation" where "do" is native. (It doesn't have a nominalisation? Alright, borrow a finite form of the verb as a noun if you have to! Lexical classes are not sacrosanct.)

>The Murfs are an imaginary people created by me. [...]
>A thousand years pass, and I'm dead, all the original fans are dead. Now it is just a few scholar who study the Murf language as an artifact of 20th century culture. Is the lexicon open or closed? Well, depends on who ever is using now, they no long have any social or legal restrictions. This sort of is like coining new words for sumerian. I think linguists would be reluctant to say that the newly coined words were part of the language and coining new words is on a the slope to a new language. This sort of closedness is the fate of all conlangs and natural languages after they die.

Sure, no more than an archaeologist would say "I don't know what the Kreuzdellekeramik people used for long-distance transport, though it seems they had something; so let's just say they used rocket unicorns". At least not in a professional role. In their private or fannish imaginings, they totally might -- that's the SCA for you, reenacting the Middle Ages "as they ought to have been".

>>I'm not conlanging for an audience so it doesn't especially rise to be a concern
>I see this so often I need a name for it

It's no accident, I think, that conlanging is the secret vice! Tolkien comes stirringly to its defence:

| The man next to me said suddenly in a dreamy voice: 'Yes, I think I shall
| express the accusative case by a prefix!' A memorable remark!
| ...Just consider the splendour of the words! '*I* shall express the
| accusative case.' Magnificent! Not 'it is expressed', nor even the more
| shambling 'it is sometimes expressed', nor the grim 'you must learn how
| it is expressed'. What a pondering of alternatives within one's choice
| before the final decision in favour of the daring and unusual prefix, so
| personal, so attractive; the final solution of some element in a design
| that had hitherto proved refractory. Here were no base considerations of
| the 'practical', the easiest for the 'modern mind', or for the million --
| only a question of taste, a satisfaction of a personal pleasure, a
| private sense of fitness.

>and I've been calling it the solipsistic methodology. In the solipsistic methodology, there really isn't anything outside of the conlanger's desires that matters, which makes asking questions on a mailing list a sort of a strange behavior. I can only assume the OP asked the question because the answer has ramifications and a standard of truth that exists outside of his own mind.

That's not at all a contradiction! The conlanger's desires might be to achieve goals which are perfectly well defined, but that doesn't mean they have at the ready all the data to assess whether they're meeting those goals.
With my strong-naturalist hat on, for instance, I'd like to be able to (theoretically) make a whole planet's worth of languages whose distributions of properties match the natural distributions I see on earth. (This is admittedly stronger than most.) But how does it follow that I should be expected to knòw that that means only about a tenth of them should contain [T], or whatnot?

Or the conlanger's desires may be to do something less well defined: e.g. in my UNLWS, the goal is to make the most native use possible of a two-dimensional writing surface, but what are the precise implications of that? Perhaps their desires are only "do something I find interesting", "do something which fits my conculture". But they can use help brainstorming for what would achieve such a goal nonetheless.

>re: lexically closed vs derivationally open
>This comes down to what one calls a word/lexeme or what have you. Even in toki pona, (and Greek and English!) there are phrases which behave like words but are clearly made up of phrases, like chemin-de-fer, jack-in-the-box, and the origin of goodbye, (god be with you), so even if the set of morphemes (bound and/or unbound) is closed, you can still make new things that pass a lot of the tests one might imagine for wordhood (e.g. does it take plural form, can it be split apart w/o changing meaning, does the location of accent change, etc)

Quite true. The association between the word and the lexical item is too strong in the minds of most (and I don't mean to restrict to people who know what "lexical item" is!). Nothing's wrong with multi-word lexical items, or on the other side of the coin with sub-word ones.

>re: language academy
>Yes, this is a good idea, I think more conlang writers should include this sort of direction to fans because the lack of it is part of what prevents fandom in the first place.

I have what you would perhaps consider a more pessimistic view (or is it just realistic?): there seems to be no rèason for potential fans to become interested in 99.9% of conlangs. The ones which don't come with a major media franchise attached don't seem to have a hope. On the other side, the ones which _do_ come with a major media franchise get their fans whether or not the conlang is any good at all. (For instance, I was recently saddened to see someone asking on Google+ about Mando'a, the language of the Mandalorian culture, for which they're part of a group into creating artifacts and whatnot. Mando'a is noobish in every way.)

Alex

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