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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 3

CONLANG January 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: So, about Ithkuil...

From:

David Peterson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 19 Jan 2013 22:19:03 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (18 lines)

On Jan 19, 2013, at 5:46 PM, selpa'i <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> It saddens me a bit to read this. Do you have solid evidence for your belief or is it more of an intuitive guess? Surely, you understand the complexity of Ithkuil the best, but I don't want to easily give up my hopes that "THAT level of fluency" is attainable. Why do you think it's impossible?

If I could add, you might want to search the archives for discussions of Fith or Shallow Fith and its alienness. One of the things that And Rosta pointed out about Fith is that it's possible to speak it without taking advantage of some of the oddities of its stack operations. Doing so would technically be speaking Fith, it just wouldn't be very interesting, compared to what it's possible to do with Fith. I think John's saying the same thing here.

If we imagine a potential person that has the workings of Ithkuil so ingrained they could produce examples like John's on the fly, it would be interesting. I share his feeling that such mastery isn't possible, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that I'm 100% certain it's not possible (my understanding of Ithkuil isn't detailed enough to make any such claim with certainty). Whether it's possible or not, though, I do believe a given human could be better than other humans at doing it—and I think practice would be the key. It would take discipline to ensure that one isn't taking any shortcuts and is giving a good faith attempt at giving it their all, but I'm confident a human could get to a point where it comes more naturally that it would to another. It's my guess, though, that it would never approach the maximum potential the language holds (and please note that for me, at least, it is definitely a guess; I don't have evidence to back this up).

As to the benefits, I think the personal benefits would far outweigh any possible external benefits. I, for one, would be impressed, but that only goes so far. If the Ithkuil experiment works as I think it could, working with it might sharpen one's observational and analytical skills when it comes to examining some gestalt—whatever it is—and breaking it down. It would be a different way of approaching a problem that humans often solve via metaphor. That is, we understand and conceptualize many abstract concepts (and some not so abstract concepts) in terms of concrete processes. It helps us to get a hold of those concepts, while at the same time highlighting and sublimating certain aspects of them (see Lakoff's work for more on this). Thus, it's a benefit and a crutch at the same time. One of the things that gifted writers, orators and teachers are able to is to take some concept we understand in a number of standard ways and present it in some new way—perhaps using a different conceptual metaphor or presenting a different analytic framework—which forces to examine a concept we've heretofore understood in an entirely new way, perhaps highlighting different aspects that had been deemphasized. Thus, we gain a new understanding of that process.

Theoretically with Ithkuil one goes beyond metaphorical understanding allowing one to break down any concept into its actual component parts. This isn't something that comes easily or naturally to most people. If you continue to work with Ithkuil, perhaps you will improve your ability to deconstruct abstract phenomena.

I'm not sure if this would be encouraging or discouraging, and I don't have anything to back this up. These are hypotheses and opinions. If you were to work with Ithkuil and try to gain some measure of fluency, I'm sure the subject would make a wonderful article for Fiat Lingua. :)

David Peterson
LCS President
[log in to unmask]
www.conlang.org

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