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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 3

CONLANG January 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: infinite sentences (was: Word Limit)

From:

Nikolay Ivankov <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 20:57:19 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (60 lines)

On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Daniel Burgener
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > [---snip---]
> >
> > First off, I'm defining a sentence in English as some combination of
> > English words fulfilling some set of syntax rules. Whether the rules
> > prohibit infinitely long sentences or not is a question for linguists,
> and
> > I am not one.
>
> [---snip---]
>
> I'm not a linguist either, but it seems to me that part of the
> definition of a sentence is that it COMPLETES a thought. Isn't it a
> requirement, then, that the sentence have an end? And aren't infinite
> sentences forbidden by the rules of grammar? Is it "a sentence" before
> it has a full stop? Once it has a full stop, can it be infinite?
>
> Yes, you can use some generative rules to keep the process going as
> long as you like, but, UNTIL YOU STOP, you don't have a "sentence",
> and once you stop, you don't have an infinite sentence. Until you stop
> you have a work in progress, a partial sentence in the process of
> being built, but not a complete sentence. And the rules of grammar
> require a sentence to be complete, and therefore finite, or it can't
> be called a sentence.
>
> The devil's advocate, of course, can say "start with the full stop on
> the right and build the sentence leftward to infinity. Then it has an
> end, but no beginning, and is still infinite." But that doesn't work
> either, because to be a sentence you must be able, at least in
> principle, to speak it (or read it), and to speak it you must BEGIN
> to speak it. And to begin to speak it, you must locate its beginning.
> Thus it must have a beginning AND an end.
>
> Speaking as an engineer, not as a mathematician, I would propose that
> a practical upper limit on sentence length should be a sentence than
> can be read and understood in a single 12-hour sitting. And don't
> forget that a sentence that takes 6 hours to read will probably take
> AT LEAST six MORE hours to disentangle and understand. At least!
>

I think Fidel Castro won't agree with your limit.

More likely, a 3-hour sentence will take 9 hours to parse and
> understand, so I'm tempted to say if the sentence cannot be read in 3
> hours then it's not a useable English sentence. Given the average
> adult (English) reading speed of 250 words per minute, 250 * 60 * 3 =
> 45,000 words. So the upper limit on a useable English sentence would
> be 45,000 words. (Moby Dick in 5 sentences; Atlas Shrugged in 13
> sentences; Fahrenheit 451 in slighty over one sentence)
>
> That's an _upper_ limit on the practical limit, not the actual
> practical limit, which is, I'm sure, considerably shorter.
>
> --gary
>

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