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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 4

CONLANG January 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Re: USAGE: Symmetric and asymmetric formal and informal pronouns.

From:

Mathieu Roy <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 26 Jan 2013 02:27:41 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (110 lines)

Most of what Christophe said also applied to how French is being used in Quebec, so I will not repeat in the case of primary and high school. 

The usage of "tu" and "vous" has changed a lot in the last 50 years and I think it is still changing. My grandfather (67 years old) was using "vous" to talk to his father, but not all is sibling did because they were in the period this was changing. Personally, I only have heard one time in my life someone using "vous" for their parents and they were very old (I'm not counting the times I've heard it on television since some movie take place before 1960). Personally I always used "tu" with my grandparents (I'm 22), and using "vous" would feel very distant for me. Most people I know of my age use "tu" for their grandparents.

Personally (and I think this apply to many), I have a hard time knowing if I should use "tu" or "vous". For example, I was using "vous" with my professor (he is around 50 years old) where I had an internship and he was using "tu". But it felt too distant using "vous", so I switched to "tu", but that also feels awkward. I've talked about it with another person (who is around 27 years old), and he was using "vous" at first, but then wanted to switch, so he started to write "tu" in his emails with our professor, but then when he saw him face to face it felt too awkward for him to start using "tu" so he went back to using "vous". I like when teachers make it clear what they would prefer. One of my teacher said she would prefer us calling her "tu" so she doesn't feel old; another one said he was fine if we used either "tu" or "vous" (he didn't care). 

If I go to a store and buy something, and the cashier seems to be of my age, some will use "tu" and other "vous". Personally, I use "tu" and feel awkward when the other use "vous". Once I've heard someone from France that was in Quebec and she was complaining about cashiers who were calling her "tu" and said she wasn't their friend.

I have noticed that when I meet francophone from Africa, they tend to use "vous" a lot more, which also feels awkward for me. 

My mother told me to ask people whether they prefer me using "tu" or "vous", but that also feels awkward for me, because I feel that a person will not necessarily admit s/he preferred being call "vous" but still might be somewhat offended.

Personally, I would prefer there wasn't this constant dilemma in my mother tongue, but there is. But I would rationally like to try to avoid using "vous" as much as possible, but I still often do because it feels more "right" and also because in some cases the person I'm talking to might think I'm a better person because of this, which I think is silly. 

In my last year before university (I was then going to an Anglophone school), one of my teacher was signing is surname "Gabe" instead of "Gabriel". That felt awkward to, but I prefer too much casual than not enough ^^.

In fact, I really like that on a mailing list like this there might be plenty of "types" of people (which is rarely the case in our everyday life). There are people in high school and other in retirement, there are people from USA and other from China, etc. And not knowing that information, I always use the name that is sign at the end of the email, and I think this is nice like that. 

To answer to the question whether in your case you should use "tu" or "vous", I would say even francophone people would be confused. Personally, I would use "vous" if I want the relation to be strictly teacher/student and stay distant (ex: not talking about things that are unrelated to your teacher/student relation), otherwise I would use "tu". However, using "tu" when a "vous" is excepted could be more offending than the opposite for some person. And if you use "vous" when the person would prefer "tu", in most case s/he will tell you. However, the opposite is not true IME. 

Final thought: I don't know if it is "normal" that so many francophone don't know which one to use and that many people come to different conclusions in similar situation? Do you think this is because we are in a transition period and that "vous" will be less and less use in the future in the sense of a polite singular second person pronoun?

-Mathieu

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Constructed Languages List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] De la part de Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
Envoyé : samedi 26 janvier 2013 01:27
À : [log in to unmask]
Objet : Re: USAGE: Symmetric and asymmetric formal and informal pronouns.

On 26 January 2013 00:10, Leonardo Castro <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I have heard that the distinction between formal and informal pronouns
> (the T-V distinction) is kind of symmetric in some languages such as
> French and asymmetric in languages such as Japanese and Brazilian
> Portuguese.
>
> Let me explain: in French, a student uses a formal pronoun for her/his
> professor and vice-versa, while in Japanese the vice-versa part
> doesn't work (student uses a pronoun and professor uses other).
>
>
That's actually incorrect. When I was in primary and junior high school, we
pupils would all use "vous" towards our teachers, and they all used "tu" to
reply to us. So it was just as asymmetric as in Japanese. Only when I
reached high school did the usage change, and only then did the teachers
start to use "vous" towards us as well. So it's far more complicated than
French having symmetrical politeness and other languages having
asymmetrical politeness. At least age seems to have an influence as well.

The usage may also vary from school to school. While I was used to being
referred as "tu" by my teachers in primary school, I know in others the
teachers used "vous" to talk to pupils. It always sounded weird to me:
using "vous" against a 10-year-old child strikes me as so over-polite it
becomes sarcastic.

In any case, the picture is much more complicated than what you made it
look like.


> Someone told me that the difference is that in French the T-V
> distinction is used to keep a distance between people, while in
> Japanese it is used to make clear who is hierarchically superior to
> whom.
>
> Do you agree with this analysis?
> Any comments?
>
>
As a first step, this is not bad, but in both cases the picture is far more
complicated than that. There is definitely a matter of hierarchy going on
in French, as it's perfectly normal in a company to use "vous" when talking
to one's boss, while they use "tu" towards you (a usage I've always hated
BTW. I'm so happy such nonsense doesn't happen in the Netherlands). As for
Japanese, besides the hierarchy issue, the in-group vs. out-group issue is
quite important in deciding how to address someone as well, and that's a
matter of keeping a distance towards those in the out-group, while keeping
those in the in-group close together (and those in-groups and out-groups
change with context!).

So in both cases both distance and hierarchy play a role. They just do so
differently in both languages.


> ---
>
> Personally, a French professor who is 20 or 30 years older than me has
> been calling me "tu" and signing her first name in e-mails. Should I
> automatically use "tu" as well or not? (I'm a ~30 years old professor
> [as you can infer by my e-mail address].)
>
>
Personally I would use "tu", but I've been living in the Netherlands for so
long that it's probably the Dutch influence in me that's saying that (the
rule in Dutch is simple: if someone calls you "jij" –the Dutch equivalent
of "tu"–, you're entitled to use "jij" back. Unfortunately it doesn't
always work that way in French).

This said, the use of the first name and the fact that you are both
professors are strong indications that symmetrical use of pronouns is
warranted, even in French. I think.

Thinking of the headaches politeness has always caused me when I lived in
France makes me glad I chose to move to the Netherlands.
-- 
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.

http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/

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