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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 4

CONLANG January 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Using pre-existing conlang Roots to create a new language

From:

Elliott Lash <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Elliott Lash <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 26 Jan 2013 10:53:06 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (45 lines)

Thanks Alex for your comments

(1) Silinestic languages have multiple abstract known formations, as you suggested. -tū and -ma are just two of them. There's also -rhai and -wa and -lo for some more that I can think of off the top of my head. The idea here is that although all would be attested in the daughter languages, only some are productive. Perhaps the 'Germanic' language chose to make -tū productive and extended it to roots which would have taken -ma in the proto-language.

(2) As for the change from [t_h] to [d] change, I never implied that it was one step, I would assume it moved through [t], but after the voiceless sound had become [T]. So I am not sure if that renders your point moot, as I am not a phonologist. Otherwise, I could just use your alternative method of deriving [d], via [T]. That's fair enough.

(3) Granted this sort of thing might be not everyone's cup of tea. But I would like to distance this type of endeavor from the more common approach to this kind of a postiori conlanging, which is to take a proto-language reconstructed by academic methods on the basis of real natlangs and then create a sort of alternative development to wind up with a new branch on the tree for the same language family. My design goals here are completely different. It is to take mostly a priori roots and apply sound changes that are similar, but possibly not identical to the sound changes posited in the development of the target language. In this way I can create an A PRIORI language that is superficially a like the target natlang. Of course Silinestic does have some influences from my study of Indo-European, so it's not completely free of a posteriori effects. What I have often found in the past in trying to do this with the Silinestic roots that I have is that the
 roots and the morphology that I designed for that proto-language do not really constitute a phonotactically suitable system for deriving fake Germanic (for example) via the actual sound changes that are posited for Germanic. That means that I really have to think a lot about how to get the same or similar result with different changes.

Thanks again for your comments and I am glad you thought it was done 'great craft'! It was really just a quick attempt which I am sure can be greatly improved. For instance, I have noted that 'Esset' (*essida) and Wetze (*westitu) actually have the wrong development for 'd' and 't', if I want to wind up with something approximating the history of Germanic. -d- should become -t- and then (OHG) -zz- and then (NHG) -ss-, while -t- should become -T- then -D- and then -t-, and in fact that is what usually happens even in this fake Silinestic Germanic. However, since I like these words, I'll have to think of some new non-Germanic sound changes that have the effect of creating Germanic sounding words.

Oh, and finally, this language is a practice language and really would never have developed in Oreni (the world where Silindion and its proto-language Silinestic are spoken)

Elliott 




________________________________
 From: Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] 
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: Using pre-existing conlang Roots to create a new language
 
On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 18:03:16 -0800, Elliott Lash <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Note that the 'Germanic' language differs from Silindion in having another
> abstract noun suffix -tū instead of -ma - this I think is fairly common 
> amongst related languages.  

What's actually really common, I think, is for a language to have a whole bunch of suffixes (/ other processes) that it uses to make abstract nouns with different fossilised frequencies and patterns of behaviour; just one would be kinda weird.  Of course, it is a very common historical development for different such suffixes to become more or less productive.  

> This ['th'] would then change to 'd-' (aspirated t to voiced stop seems 
> like a fair change to me). 

I must differ.  To me, that change in one step seems actually impņssible if there is also a [t] in the language: [t_h] and [t] and [d] only differ in voice onset time, decreasing in that order, and since sound change is gradual [t_h] cannot jump over [t] to become [d].  Now, as it turns out, the *other* direction [d] to [t_h] is a common enough multi-step change in natlangs, with breathy voice as an intermediate, [d] > [d_h\] > [t_h]; but I've never seen this run in reverse (unconditioned voicing changes are virtually always towards the unmarked, and voiceless aspirated are less marked than voiced).  The shortest way to get [t_h] > [d] I can see is [t_h] > [T] which in Germanesque style > [D] > [d].  

All that said, there are enough steps in your development that I'm sure you can find another way around it that does not need [t_h] > [d].  

> So what do you think? 

Not my own cup of tea (I don't want my artlangs to have anything to do with German or Romance or other top-twenty natlangs, that's just so cņmmon), but seemingly done with great craft.  Bravo.

Alex

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