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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 4

CONLANG January 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Fwd: [CONLANG] Using pre-existing conlang Roots to create a new language

From:

Melroch <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 27 Jan 2013 17:39:48 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (195 lines)

I'm afraid this didn't go to the list the first time I sent it.

---------- Vidarebefordrat meddelande ----------
Från: *Melroch*
Datum: söndagen den 27:e januari 2013
Ämne: [CONLANG] Using pre-existing conlang Roots to create a new language


The actual unconditioned chain shift in Old High German is pretty cool:

d > t > T > d

except that the outcome of single *t is actually [s_m] after vowels and
[ts_m] elsewhere including when geminated.

I'd try to come up with some earlier perhaps conditioned shift which feeds
such a shift.

I've done my share of bogolanging of the "apply the sound changes of
natlang X to natlang Y" variety and found that it only brings you so far. I
have also done my share of "apply the sound changes of natlang X to
a-priori conlang Y" and above all the "what sound changes do you need/can
you apply to con-/natlang X to make it resemble natlang Y" variety. The
thing is that I almost always end up spicing up the stew by introducing
something from natlang Z, related to neither X nor Y. Take for example
Rhodrese, which was in origin a renewal of a project from my teens taking
bits from Italian and French and build a Romance language most pleasing to
me. Of course I know more now so I'd be more careful of making it a
plausible descendant of Vulgar Latin, and I would take care not to get too
close to Occitan (for all my admiration for that language) Lombard or
Romantsch. So I suddenly find myself introducing Germanic-style i-umlaut
and then bending the pattern of the development of nominal plural endings
in Italian to get a starred system where all three declensions have plurals
in _*-i_ which feed i-umlaut. I don't know if such things make such
conlanging more 'advanced' but it does make it more fun, and more "a priori
in a posteriori" which I guess is a Good Thing. After all the whole point
of Rhodrese is to create a romlang which satisfies my possibly warped
aesthetic sensibilities -- a yummy lámatyáve as Tolkien would probably not
have said.

With Sohlob I've tried to work backwards to come up with an earlier stage
of an (a priori) conlang which would allow me to craft realistic sound
changes to come up with sister languages with certain characteristics,
mostly inspired by certain natlangs. This has proven harder than I
expected, mainly because the characteristics of the daughter languages are
largely already predetermined and it becomes a requirement on the mother
language to be able to realistically change into all those daughter
languages. E.g. the eastern Sohlob dialects which were originally were
designed to phonologically resemble Turkic and modern Persian lack any form
of quantity distinction in both vowels and consonants, and so did their
mother language. Now I wanted the western Sohlob languages to resemble
Germanic at least a little and so to have both long and short vowels. I
could not very well just decide that the mother language had long vowels
without upsetting the patterns of syncope and apocope which obtained
between the mother language and the eastern languages. Instead I
'reconstructed' a grandmother language which had both long and short
*consonants* between vowels and then the following sound changes in the
western branch:

| Vd  > V:d > V:D
| Vt  > Vd > VD
| Vdd > V:dd > V:t
| Vtt > Vtt > Vt
| Vxt > Vtt

originally consonant length was supposed to disappear without trace in the
eastern branch but there was a small phonotactic weirdness in that branch:
it didn't have any intervocalic voiceless stops since in the older version
without quantity I had had

| VdV > VDV > VzV
| VtV > VdV

to which I now added

| VddV > VdV
| VttV > VtV

I decided that *dd had been pretty rare, but that the western branch had
*zd > *dd before the quantity shift so as to make V:t less rare in the
daughter languages. However I'm still not quite satisfied, as the relative
frequency of V:D vs. V:t in the western branch and Vd vs. Vt in the eastern
branch doesn't feel quite realistic. The probably best solution is to have
/d/, /t/, /tt/ but no /dd/** in the mother language and then have
west-Germanic-like Cj > CC feeding the quantity shift in the western
branch. That would be easily introduced since +y clusters and
palatalization are prominent in the eastern branch. This however imtroduces
another problem in that palatalization of *ry was __the__ source of /l/ in
both branches. There are two possible solutions: (1) unconditioned *r > l
and *z > r in the western branch, which would make /rt/ strangely rare or
(2) a late *l > *r and then even later *ry > l in the eastern branch, which
at least is naturalistic since it actually happened in north Iranian (Latin
_Alani_ borrowed from a reflex of proto-Iranian *āryāna.
Anyway thus it is a constant tug-of-war between tweaks to mother, daughter
and sister languages. It _is_ fun but it rather shatters any hopes of ever
rounding off the family tree. Which I guess is good. I don't think I want
to get finished with this, but I feel that things morph too fast for me to
keep my vocabulary db updated...

/bpj


Den lördagen den 26:e januari 2013 skrev Elliott Lash:

Thanks Alex for your comments

(1) Silinestic languages have multiple abstract known formations, as you
suggested. -tû and -ma are just two of them. There's also -rhai and -wa and
-lo for some more that I can think of off the top of my head. The idea here
is that although all would be attested in the daughter languages, only some
are productive. Perhaps the 'Germanic' language chose to make -tû
productive and extended it to roots which would have taken -ma in the
proto-language.

(2) As for the change from [t_h] to [d] change, I never implied that it was
one step, I would assume it moved through [t], but after the voiceless
sound had become [T]. So I am not sure if that renders your point moot, as
I am not a phonologist. Otherwise, I could just use your alternative method
of deriving [d], via [T]. That's fair enough.

(3) Granted this sort of thing might be not everyone's cup of tea. But I
would like to distance this type of endeavor from the more common approach
to this kind of a postiori conlanging, which is to take a proto-language
reconstructed by academic methods on the basis of real natlangs and then
create a sort of alternative development to wind up with a new branch on
the tree for the same language family. My design goals here are completely
different. It is to take mostly a priori roots and apply sound changes that
are similar, but possibly not identical to the sound changes posited in the
development of the target language. In this way I can create an A PRIORI
language that is superficially a like the target natlang. Of course
Silinestic does have some influences from my study of Indo-European, so
it's not completely free of a posteriori effects. What I have often found
in the past in trying to do this with the Silinestic roots that I have is
that the
 roots and the morphology that I designed for that proto-language do not
really constitute a phonotactically suitable system for deriving fake
Germanic (for example) via the actual sound changes that are posited for
Germanic. That means that I really have to think a lot about how to get the
same or similar result with different changes.

Thanks again for your comments and I am glad you thought it was done 'great
craft'! It was really just a quick attempt which I am sure can be greatly
improved. For instance, I have noted that 'Esset' (*essida) and Wetze
(*westitu) actually have the wrong development for 'd' and 't', if I want
to wind up with something approximating the history of Germanic. -d- should
become -t- and then (OHG) -zz- and then (NHG) -ss-, while -t- should become
-T- then -D- and then -t-, and in fact that is what usually happens even in
this fake Silinestic Germanic. However, since I like these words, I'll have
to think of some new non-Germanic sound changes that have the effect of
creating Germanic sounding words.

Oh, and finally, this language is a practice language and really would
never have developed in Oreni (the world where Silindion and its
proto-language Silinestic are spoken)

Elliott




________________________________
 From: Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: Using pre-existing conlang Roots to create a new language

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 18:03:16 -0800, Elliott Lash <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> Note that the 'Germanic' language differs from Silindion in having another
> abstract noun suffix -tû instead of -ma - this I think is fairly common
> amongst related languages.

What's actually really common, I think, is for a language to have a whole
bunch of suffixes (/ other processes) that it uses to make abstract nouns
with different fossilised frequencies and patterns of behaviour; just one
would be kinda weird.  Of course, it is a very common historical
development for different such suffixes to become more or less productive.

> This ['th'] would then change to 'd-' (aspirated t to voiced stop seems
> like a fair change to me).

I must differ.  To me, that change in one step seems actually impòssible if
there is also a [t] in the language: [t_h] and [t] and [d] only differ in
voice onset time, decreasing in that order, and since sound change is
gradual [t_h] cannot jump over [t] to become [d].  Now, as it turns out,
the *other* direction [d] to [t_h] is a common enough multi-step change in
natlangs, with breathy voice as an intermediate, [d] > [d_h\] > [t_h]; but
I've never seen this run in reverse (unconditioned voicing changes are
virtually always towards the unmarked, and voiceless aspirated are less
marked than voiced).  The shortest way to get [t_h] > [d] I can see is
[t_h] > [T] which in Germanesque style > [D] > [d].

All that said,

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July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
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July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 5
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July 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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