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CONLANG  January 2013, Week 4

CONLANG January 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Lexicon (proportion and quantity)

From:

Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 25 Jan 2013 17:07:18 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (69 lines)

On 25 January 2013 16:42, George Corley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> > I use the following rule of thumb, which is useful to measure both
> > advancement in learning a language and in creating one:
> > - At 50 words you basically can't really interact with others only in
> that
> > language;
> > - At 500 words you can get by in the most basic conversations with
> natives;
> > - At 5000 words you can handle at least 95% of the situations thrown at
> you
> > except discussions necessitating specific jargons;
> > - At 50000 words you know the language as well as if not better than most
> > natives.
> >
> > Languages can have many more words than that, but those are usually very
> > specialised vocabularies only known to a subset of native speakers.
> >
>
> I'm very skeptical that 500 words can get you much utility.  Maybe with
> that much you can negotiate and ask for prices, and maybe order everything
> at exactly one restaurant, but not much else.


Which is exactly what I wrote above: "the most basic conversations" was
supposed to be parsed as "the (most basic) conversations", not "the most
(basic conversations)". So yeah, doing a bit of shopping, asking for price,
saying hello, goodbye and maybe talking generically about the weather, but
not much else.


>  AIUI, conversational fluency
> is usually pegged at around 2000 words.
>
>
That was a rule of thumb, so the figures are naturally approximate. But
I've read myself the figure for conversational fluency being given more as
an interval "2000-5000 words". Using the 5000 figure fits better with the
other figures.


>
> > Of course, this rule assumes that you learn/create the grammar, syntax
> and
> > pragmatics of the language at the same time (or earlier) as you
> > learn/create the lexicon. But I don't consider that learning by heart a
> > bilingual dictionary is "learning a language", just like I don't consider
> > that creating a list of words without grammar is "creating one", so the
> > assumption is in the wording of my rule of thumb :) .
> >
>
> Well yes, of course.   Though I think grammar can have natural limits where
> the lexicon doesn't, especially when not trying to be naturalistic.  To get
> theoretical for a second -- the entire reason that linguists posit that
> grammar exists is that it allows a finite set of rules to be stored in our
> brains to put together infinite patterns.  Individual lexicons would be
> necessarily finite as well, but I'd say there's no limit to how many words
> can exist "in the wild" among the entire speaker community.
>

Of course. Which means that whatever a language throws at you in terms of
grammar, by the time you've learned 50000 words you should have had more
than enough time to master it! :)
-- 
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.

http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/

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