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CONLANG  February 2013, Week 2

CONLANG February 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Greek Y (was:: Easy-typing Arabic romanization)

From:

BPJ <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 11 Feb 2013 11:54:14 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (82 lines)

Interestingly there is evidence that there were some dialects of modern
Greek, one of them that of Athens, where /y/ of whaever origin merged with
/u/ instead of /i/ but apparently they all went extinct with the influx of
eastern Greek refugees early in the 20th century.

Den fredagen den 8:e februari 2013 skrev MorphemeAddict:

> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 3:37 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> > As this deviates somewhat from the question of Arabic romanization, I've
> > changed the subject line.
> >
> > On 07/02/2013 21:23, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Adnan Majid wrote:
> >>
> >>  [snip]
> >
> >> It helps that Arabic has only 3 main vowels. Thus the
> >>> vowel changes could be something like the following:
> >>> a->o, i->y, u->eu, or maybe a->o, i->e, u->y, or
> >>> whatever you'd like (for instance, we already use
> >>> "syria" to render the Arabic ".Sooriyya" as the Greek
> >>> "y" was originally similar to the french "eu").
> >>>
> >>
> >> The Greek upsilon (whence "y") was originally pronounced
> >>  similar to the French "u" [IPA y] (not "eu").
> >>
> >
> > To be accurate, Greek Y (upsilon/ upsilon) was _originally_
> > pronounced [u] or, if long, [u:].  It retained that
> > pronunciation in the Doric dialects until those dialects
> > gave way to standard Hellenistic Greek in the later Roman
> > period.
> >
> > It also retained that high back rounded pronunciation in
> > diphthongs in _all_ dialects, until the semivowel gave way
> > to [f] or [v] at some time in the late Hellenistic or early
> > Byzantine period.
> >
> > The shift of [u] --> [y] (and, of course, [u:] --> [y:])
> > happened in the Ionic dialects, including Attic (the dialect
> > of Athens) possibly as early as the 6th cent BC, and seems
> > to have been established by the 5th century BC in all those
> > dialects.  The Attic dialect eventually became the basis of
> > the Greek Koine of the Roman period and the pronunciation
> > [y(;)] became standard, before becoming unrounded at
> > sometime in the Byzantine period, giving the modern Greek
> > pronunciation of [i].
> >
>
> Thanks for the correction.
>
> stevo
>
> >
> > I am not aware of _any_ evidence that Y was anytime pronounced like the
> > [ø] or [œ] of French _eu_.  Tho reading above, I wonder if _eu_ is not,
> in
> > fact, a typo for _ou_.
> >
> > Greek ΣΥΡΙΑ (Syria) was originally pronounced [suria:], with
> > high pitch on the [i].  In Latin we find it variously
> > spelled as _Suria_, _Syria_ or _Siria_ - with all vowels
> > short (when vowel distinction was phonemic) - clearly
> > depending upon both the period and Greek dialect encountered
> > by the writer (the Greeks of 'Magna Graeca' of southern
> > Italy were originally Dorian speakers).
> >
> > --
> > Ray
> > ==============================**====
> > http://www.carolandray.plus.**com <http://www.carolandray.plus.com>
> > ==============================**====
> > "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
> > for individual beings and events."
> > [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
> >
>

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September 2002, Week 1
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