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CONLANG  February 2013, Week 2

CONLANG February 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Proto-Jardic noun morphology

From:

Herman Miller <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 13 Feb 2013 23:15:03 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (104 lines)

On 2/12/2013 1:56 PM, Alex Fink wrote:

> Diphthongs being retained while simple vowels are lost is certainly
> plausible enough.  Also, the change you're looking for might be
> stress-conditioned.  Something like that immediate post-stress vowels
> are lost; or the same restricted to word-finally; or vowels in
> certain weak positions in feet are lost.

Yes, stress might explain some of the alternations. I'll have to think 
about that. Verbs have an imperfective suffix, -sé or -ŏs. When preceded 
by a voice suffix it's just -s.

>> So far so good. But the inanimate ablative suffix is -öl after
>> consonants and -l after vowels, and it's -ol after consonants and
>> -l after vowels for abstract nouns. This starts to get tricky.
>>
>> *siaḍu-ile>  śaṛ-öl *zakiğ-ile>  zaķi-l ?
>>
>> *vieze-elu>  véz-ol *guleviğ-elu>  gulvi-l ?
>
> I, for one, would not be satisfied with -öl and -ol having been
> _further apart_ in the proto-language, as with this -ile and -elu; I
> would want to draw them together.

It does seem that at some point they should have been more similar, but 
that might have been earlier than Proto-Jardic.

> That is, if you do want to keep your modern table of inflections, it
> probably dictates what the most likely vowel coalescences from
> proto-Jardic to Jarda should have been!  E.g., here, in the ablative,
> one wants to explain modern _ö_<  *Vin+Vabl, _o_<  *Vabs+Vabl, where
> Vin and Vabs were the former theme vowels of the inanimate and
> abstracts, and Vabl was the initial vowel of the ablative clitic.
> Then one could set up the proto-ablative as *VlV, and account for the
> patterns of vowel loss using some kind of metrical explanation.  E.g.
> acute is stress, possibly secondary, below, and we suppose that a
> diphthong attracted it but otherwise it defaulted to the end syllable
> in words of a suitably canonical stem shape. animate: *...C+VlV́>
> C-lü inanimate: *...CV́+VlV>  C-öl abstract: *...CV́+VlV>  C-ol

I'm thinking it might simplify some things if length is distinctive in 
Proto-Jardic. Say that inanimate nouns end in -i or -ī, where short -i 
was lost (*siaḍi-olu > śaṛ-öl) but long -ī remained as -i (*zakī-olu > 
zaķi-l). Abstract nouns might have ended in -o, or some other short 
vowel that didn't mutate the -o in -olu.

> This supposes there was a simple *V that could have become -ü,
> though!

Yes, and I guess typically that would be *u. (On the one hand, that 
would explain why the /l/ in -lü didn't get palatalized. But then modern 
/u/ needs to come from somewhere else.) So maybe the animate nouns had a 
stress on the ending, -olú instead of -ólu.

> The latter explanation actually stands a chance of being good, here,
> I think.  That is, perhaps the dative and instrumental were actual
> cases in proto-Jardic, while the ablative was made of a clitic
> following an oblique case (maybe the same one as the antecedent of
> the modern absolutive or genitive?).  Then we'd just have to suppose
> the oblique case ended in V for both inanimate and abstract, while in
> other cases the inanimate used a theme vowel and the abstract
> didn't.

A clitic might work. Cases might develop from postpositions, but I don't 
think Jarda is the sort of language that would have postpositions (it's 
pretty consistently head-initial).

> I may as well append a few things I meant to say regarding your
> earlier Proto-Jardic threads but never got around to:
>
> - In a language where there are lots of nonsystematic ablauting
> procedures, appearing in only a few word-families each, one expects
> the ablaut to be _old_.  If I were you, I would not be trying to
> explain all the Jarda ablaut in Proto-Jarda!  I'd be trying to
> explain some of it, especially the more contemporarily systematic
> parts, but then leave the residue as ablaut in the proto-language, to
> have arisen at an even earlier stage. (Differential treatment in
> loans of course helps too, but that is likelier to give all-out
> doublets than cases with systematic derivation-looking function.)

I haven't actually determined how old Proto-Jardic is: it could be old 
enough to account for the ablaut. But I'm thinking more like 
Proto-Germanic or Proto-Romance rather than Proto-Indo-European. So 
there's still a lot of space for earlier ablaut processes.

> - IMO the idea of having a whole proto-series of retroflexes to
> explain your modern _ṛ_ is unlikely.  It is very rare for whole
> place-of-articulation series to implode that catastrophically (manner
> series do it a bit more).  Spontaneous retroflexion of a rhotic, on
> the other hand, *is* likely; it helps exaggerate the so-called
> flatness which is one of the perceptual cues of these sounds (a
> lowering of whatever formant it is).  I suspect you just had an
> alveolar *r of some sort in the proto-language, which has gone to
> modern Jarda _ṛ_.  Similarly:

Modern Jarda has an ordinary trilled /r/ as well, and I'm assuming that 
was a trilled alveolar /r/ in Proto-Jardic. But looking at initial 
consonant clusters in modern Jarda, it does seem likely that /ṛ/ was 
some kind of approximant to begin with. You never see /ṛ/ as the first 
consonant in an initial cluster (e.g. *ṛw or *ṛj), which would be 
expected if it had been some kind of stop. It could have been a lateral, 
but Jarda has enough laterals as it is. Or a tap, like /ɾ/ vs. /r/ in 
Spanish.

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