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CONLANG  March 2013, Week 2

CONLANG March 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Are there any conventions for issuing a proposed extension to conlangs such as Esperanto?

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 8 Mar 2013 11:37:34 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (73 lines)

On Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:45:43 +0000, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>On 08/03/2013 01:13, Patrick Dunn wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 6:54 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote:
>[snip]
>>> Another possibility for the use of a new tense was an
>>> "unspecified tense", as I understand Greek aorist to
>>> be, or as described in Rick Morneau's Latejami. There
>>> are lots of things about Latejami that I think should
>>> be part of a good language.

Well, for these sorts of senses of "good", the whole tense marking system being non-obligatory is the only way to go!

>> Well, in finite verbs the aorist certainly has a
>> definite tense, namely the past.  But in imperatives,
>> infinitives and subjunctive/optative forms, as well as
>> participles, it often has more a sense of aspect.
>
>Delete "often has more."  "Aorist" essentially =
>_perfective_ (*not* perfect, which is a different thing).

The aorist, yes.  But I was just rereading Ringe on the PIE verbal system, and (if I haven't confused my sources) he repeated a claim that the Ancient Greek injunctive, together with the Sanskrit injunctive, could have a more tenseless sense than the (augment-bearing) aorist.  Is this so for Greek?


On Thu, 7 Mar 2013 17:16:10 -0500, MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I once proposed a new tense for Esperanto, using an ending "-es", to
>represent events outside the event cone of relativity.
>http://www.lojban.org/files/papers/4thtense
>It didn't go over well.

I haven't read the discussion you link, but from a physicist's point of view, I quite like that, it's a very fitting extension.  Thing is, it doesn't seem very useful at human scales, where a second of space is immense and a second of time is minuscule.  I suspect that if this system occurred in the wild it would be indistinguishable in practice from, and so would be analyzed by human users as,
  -is: past
  -es: present, elsewhere
  -as: present, here
  -os: future


On Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:45:43 +0000, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>On 07/03/2013 22:42, Matthew George wrote:
>[snip]
>>
>> Even in the simplest scenarios involving time travel,
>> you can no longer speak of the past or future as
>> something that will be the same for everyone and
>> everything. Instead of an absolute perspective, it's
>> relative.  So grammar that permits only that absolute
>> view excludes most possibilities. And alternate time
>> lines?  Forget it.
>
>Adding extra "tenses" IMO is going to make the situation
>even more complicated.  It would seem to me better to follow
>Chinese and scrap tenses, and verbs only (optionally) to
>show aspectual difference.

Hear, hear.  JBR also says it well:

| European languages such as English, or indeed Esperanto, treat tense --
| which is really a context-dependent pointer like this, on your left, here 
| etc. -- as if it was an essential, objective feature of the event, just 
| as plurality is an attribute of objects.  And tense marking on verbs is 
| obligatory, no matter how redundant or meaningless this is – whether the 
| situation described is tenseless (time is a dimension, seven is prime), 
| tensed (I was born in 1967, Hitler shot himself) or indeed metatensed (I 
| will kill Hitler, this Time Line has become unstable)!  The best solution 
| isn't the Hitchhiker's Guide one of inventing special tenses for time 
|travellers; it's the normal non-European approach of ignoring tense unless 
| it's worth explicitly mentioning.
[http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/chrono.html#appx]

Alex

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