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CONLANG  March 2013, Week 2

CONLANG March 2013, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Are there any conventions for issuing a proposed extension to conlangs such as Esperanto?

From:

BPJ <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 8 Mar 2013 20:56:53 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (116 lines)

Den fredagen den 8:e mars 2013 skrev Alex Fink<[log in to unmask]>:

> On Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:45:43 +0000, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> >On 08/03/2013 01:13, Patrick Dunn wrote:
> >> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 6:54 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> >[snip]
> >>> Another possibility for the use of a new tense was an
> >>> "unspecified tense", as I understand Greek aorist to
> >>> be, or as described in Rick Morneau's Latejami. There
> >>> are lots of things about Latejami that I think should
> >>> be part of a good language.
>
> Well, for these sorts of senses of "good", the whole tense marking system
> being non-obligatory is the only way to go!
>
> Non-obligatory morphology

The concept of non-obligatory morphology crops up here from time to time,
but I wonder if it really occurs in natlangs with bound morphemes.
Non-bound morphemes certainly can and often are truly optional but I can't
recall ever seing optional bound morphemes in a natlang. Apparent cases
would seem to always actually be clitics or actually belong in word
formation rather than inflection.

Take for example the enclitic definite article in Old Scandinavian. It's
descendant in the modern languages is a bunch of bound morphemes and they
are obligatory: when you speak of something definite it has to be there.
Not a trace of optionalness. In Old Norse and Old Swedish the definite
enclitic could (still) be omitted, at least in poetry, but it clearly was a
clitic:

-  Both the noun and the article were fully inflected for number and case.
-  The article could be moved in front of the noun with an adjective
between them, somtimes appearing both preposed and enclitic at the same
time.

Any counterexamples?

/bpj




> >> Well, in finite verbs the aorist certainly has a
> >> definite tense, namely the past.  But in imperatives,
> >> infinitives and subjunctive/optative forms, as well as
> >> participles, it often has more a sense of aspect.
> >
> >Delete "often has more."  "Aorist" essentially =
> >_perfective_ (*not* perfect, which is a different thing).
>
> The aorist, yes.  But I was just rereading Ringe on the PIE verbal system,
> and (if I haven't confused my sources) he repeated a claim that the Ancient
> Greek injunctive, together with the Sanskrit injunctive, could have a more
> tenseless sense than the (augment-bearing) aorist.  Is this so for Greek?
>
>
> On Thu, 7 Mar 2013 17:16:10 -0500, MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> >I once proposed a new tense for Esperanto, using an ending "-es", to
> >represent events outside the event cone of relativity.
> >http://www.lojban.org/files/papers/4thtense
> >It didn't go over well.
>
> I haven't read the discussion you link, but from a physicist's point of
> view, I quite like that, it's a very fitting extension.  Thing is, it
> doesn't seem very useful at human scales, where a second of space is
> immense and a second of time is minuscule.  I suspect that if this system
> occurred in the wild it would be indistinguishable in practice from, and so
> would be analyzed by human users as,
>   -is: past
>   -es: present, elsewhere
>   -as: present, here
>   -os: future
>
>
> On Fri, 8 Mar 2013 08:45:43 +0000, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> >On 07/03/2013 22:42, Matthew George wrote:
> >[snip]
> >>
> >> Even in the simplest scenarios involving time travel,
> >> you can no longer speak of the past or future as
> >> something that will be the same for everyone and
> >> everything. Instead of an absolute perspective, it's
> >> relative.  So grammar that permits only that absolute
> >> view excludes most possibilities. And alternate time
> >> lines?  Forget it.
> >
> >Adding extra "tenses" IMO is going to make the situation
> >even more complicated.  It would seem to me better to follow
> >Chinese and scrap tenses, and verbs only (optionally) to
> >show aspectual difference.
>
> Hear, hear.  JBR also says it well:
>
> | European languages such as English, or indeed Esperanto, treat tense --
> | which is really a context-dependent pointer like this, on your left, here
> | etc. -- as if it was an essential, objective feature of the event, just
> | as plurality is an attribute of objects.  And tense marking on verbs is
> | obligatory, no matter how redundant or meaningless this is – whether the
> | situation described is tenseless (time is a dimension, seven is prime),
> | tensed (I was born in 1967, Hitler shot himself) or indeed metatensed (I
> | will kill Hitler, this Time Line has become unstable)!  The best solution
> | isn't the Hitchhiker's Guide one of inventing special tenses for time
> |travellers; it's the normal non-European approach of ignoring tense unless
> | it's worth explicitly mentioning.
> [http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/chrono.html#appx]
>
> Alex
>

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