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AUXLANG  March 2013, Week 3

AUXLANG March 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Support Angos on Kickstarter

From:

Stephen Rice <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 19 Mar 2013 22:09:05 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (255 lines)

On 3/18/13, Ben <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:55:21 -0600, Stephen Rice <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>> It still requires that they learn a Western language,
>>
>>No: it acknowledges that they've probably already done so.
>
> But it's still an unwritten prerequisite. It's almost like a filter designed
> to weed out those who don't know one of these languages.

Not at all. The people who know the relevant languages gain an
advantage, but the people who don't aren't particularly hurt, at least
as compared to the standard worldlang. If you give a number of groups
some words from their own language, the number of words per language
will tend to be small, so that the people derive no real learning
advantage. They have perhaps 5-10% of the basic lexicon, leaving them
with 90-95% unfamiliar. But in a westlang we simply note that most of
the people who are likely to be interested in an auxlang know a
Western language, and we design accordingly, so the average learner
has more like 80-90% familiar roots.

And this is inevitable: if you try to raise the percentages of
familiar material, you about have to exclude some previously included
group to pay for the increase. You can get around this in part using
overlapping or just plain widespread forms, but they aren't very
common, especially for core vocabulary.

>>Curiosity only beats laziness when it can do so from the couch--in
>>other words, when they're allied.
>
> Not always. It could be part of a contest or challenge (ref. JFK's Moon
> speech).

The one where he dropped his pants in public? Yes, but that was a
government project with money attached. I doubt that will happen for
us.

>>If they recognize the roots, they'll probably already have some idea
>>of the relevant paradigms.
>
> "Probably" again. No one has tested this. You can't be sure whether they'll
> instinctively learn the paradigms, or whether they'll think the westlang is
> any easier or more difficult than a worldlang.

I get the idea we're talking about different things again. Let's
restore some context:

>>It doesn't matter that "wo" is easier for the Chinese; it matters that
>>it is harder for the majority of potential users than something like
>>"me."
>
> It's going to be just as difficult for a westlang. People may recognize the
> roots, but they're still going to need to learn the
> phonological/morphological paradigms.

Now, then: what are "phonological/morphological paradigms"? It's the
"paradigm" part that's odd; there's certainly no phonological (speech
sound) problem with "me," and I don't see a morphological (morphemic
structure) problem either--if we are indeed speaking of roots. Now,
there may be  semantic problems in derivation--probably not so much
for "me"/"wo," but certainly for something like "-yard" ("brickyard,"
"vineyard"). Still, that can be handled by some general rules and the
details be left to context.

Minor digression: I find some of the derivations in -os a bit too strict. Thus,

nesumos = man-made mouse = computer mouse
vaos = man-made tree = tree diagram

Why can't "nesumos" be (in context) a toy mouse as well? Why can't
"vaos" be an artificial Christmas tree or a candelabra? Here and
elsewhere, the derivational system seems to need clarification.

>>On the other hand, Esperanto has had a significant presence
>>in the sci-fi community for years, yet learning it isn't an
>>achievement on a par with learning Klingon or Na'vi because it's too
>>easy.
>
> I think it's because Esperanto isn't exclusive to those fandoms. There's an
> underlying social implication (finvenkismo) involved with the language.

Ever hear of RaĆ­mismo? Even people who don't go that far usually
aren't strongly into finvenkismo. The existence of an external
community with its own goals may be relevant, but it would count
against any auxlang.

> Whereas Klingon and Na'vi speakers are not political activists, Esperanto
> speakers have for more than a century been associated with various ill-fated
> movements.

And hardly anyone outside the auxlang community knows this. The sci-fi
crowd doesn't. No, if you listen to how knowledge of a relevant
artlang is used, it's in terms of proving one's credentials: "I'm a
real fan because I learned the language." And that only makes sense if
it's something considered difficult. Some years ago I suggested that
Lingua Franca Nova could fit into the TV series _Lost_. I no longer
feel so confident (even if that series hadn't imploded): LFN is too
simple; it would not provide sufficient challenge.

If you compare sci-fi/fantasy artlangs, they tend to have odd
phonologies, writing systems, and grammars. They are meant to seem
strange. (The Tolkienian languages, which weren't designed to seem
alien but oddly familiar, are based on IE or Finnish. But they are
anomalous in this area.) They are harder than westlangs in general,
yet are more accessible than more recent artlangs. About the only
modern auxlang that would work here would be Sambahsa. That would give
them something to think about.

>>> I think you'd need higher than A-level to be able to recognize that many
>>> roots.
>>
>>Really? A-1 is described thus:
>>
>>Can understand and use familiar everyday expressions and very basic
>>phrases aimed at the satisfaction of needs of a concrete type.
>>Can introduce him/herself and others and can ask and answer questions
>>about personal details such as where he/she lives, people he/she knows
>>and things he/she has.
>>
>>Given that auxlangs usually have a small inventory of roots, that's a
>>very good start. And A-2 gives us this:
>>
>>Can understand sentences and frequently used expressions related to
>>areas of most immediate relevance (e.g. very basic personal and family
>>information, shopping, local geography, employment).
>>
>>That should get you through a fair part of the Esperanto 900-word Kontakto
>> list.

I should have been clearer here: through the *concepts* of the
Kontakto list. I certainly don't consider Esperanto "at sight." With
that in mind, let's look at the concepts below and see how many of
them are probably A-level:

> Unless you speak English:
> speak/talk - paroli
> am, are, is - esti
> eat - mangxi
> do - fari
> walk - marsxi
> buy - acxeti
> work - labori
> play - ludi

I'd say they all are.

>>>>> Angos is not meant to be instantly recognizable to Romance languages,
>>>>> and
>>>>> I'm not pushing for it to be used in this manner.
>>>>
>>>>Noted. There are different propagation strategies; they aren't all
>>>>at-sight or at-hearing. Even Esperanto isn't. But at-sight requires
>>>>less effort initially, which is why it will do better with lazy
>>>>people, which is almost everybody but geeks.
>>>
>>> "Initially", key word. Once they look at the grammar, they're scared
>>> off;

Since you're so keen on tests, I'd like to see you prove this. As
Kjell mentioned, there are texts for learning Interlingua that are
completely monolingual, and this could be done for other at-sight
auxlangs as well. There's a similar text for LFN, for example. The
grammar doesn't seem so daunting handled this way.

>>> it's anything but conducive to lazy learning. And that's true of every
>>> westlang I've seen so far.

I'd suggest you look a bit more.

>>Which explains why Esperanto has so many thousands of users. I see.
>
> But at what level? "Eternal beginners" are ubiquitous because of the 'fine
> points' of EO grammar.

No.

1. If EKs are "ubiquitous," they should overrun this list. But how
many are there here? There are people who haven't used Esperanto
regularly in some time, and they make mistakes; there are some who for
whatever reason dislike it and/or its users and are therefore
motivated to find it difficult and make mistakes in it; but in general
there are more competent users than not.

2. I have argued before that EKs are standard for *all* languages,
natlangs as well as auxlangs, and the reason we don't see them so much
in auxlangs other than Esperanto is simply that there are so many
Esperantists that the minority of EKs is actually large enough to
notice. But I have seen them in other auxlangs. If Angos does succeed
at all, you will find them there as well.

>>> We should look at grammar then if we're talking about how something
>>> 'works'
>>> for a group. Westlangs are recognizable to this group for sure, but
>>> their
>>> grammars are still a pain to learn.
>>
>>That depends largely on the approach used, though the very shift from
>>vocabulary (oddly the defining characteristic of worldlangs) to
>>grammar raises an awkward question: why not just use Western roots
>>with a (perhaps a-priori) grammar?
>
> Has such a thing not been done yet (or are you joking)? If not I can whip
> one up this evening and send it to the mailing list.

It's been done often enough. Let's unpack the point.

To begin with, the defining characteristic of worldlangs is the
lexicon. This is nonsense, of course: in terms of comparative
linguistics, vocabulary is at best helpful, not typically dispositive,
because it's the single most mutable feature of language. Indeed, as
I've noted before, a westlang will eventually drift away from the West
by borrowing non-western vocabulary, while a worldlang will eventually
drift westward as users borrow western vocabulary. So beyond a limited
point, it's a waste of time.

I proposed a thought experiment a time or so: relex an Interlingua
text with morphemes from Chinese, and a Chinese text with Interlingua
morphemes. Will the results still be westlangs? I would say that
fundamentally the first one is, but the second one isn't, though
westlangs aren't as westy as some people suppose.

But if vocabulary doesn't matter to classification, why is it the
litmus test of worldlang purity?

Now, you have referred to grammatical issues, which does make more
sense, but if you're going to do that, why not drop the lexical test
entirely and just combine a western vocabulary with a neutral,
a-priori grammar? Of course it has been done before, but worldlangers
typically reject it out of hand. Why not acknowledge a-priori grammar
as mostly sufficient to be classified as a worldlang?

>>2. If you use a language passively a lot of the time, you will
>>probably be able to make it active after a while, and without much
>>effort. That's the standard "at sight" strategy, and it works
>>reasonably well. (If it didn't, Interlingua would have died out long
>>ago.)
>
> "Probably"

Yes, as in "it happens more often than not." There are people who have
trouble learning or using languages; but for their counter-example,
one could say "always.'

> We should really set up some tests here. Otherwise our assertions are
> baseless.

The tests have been done for centuries, if informally. It is a matter
of history that people have moved from purely passive use to active
use, and in some periods that was considered the best approach. It is
how many, perhaps most, fluent Interlinguans have achieved their
fluency in that auxlang, and it occurs frequently in other auxlangs as
well, including Esperanto.

Steve

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June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 1
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October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
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July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
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October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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July 1998, Week 5
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July 1998, Week 1
June 1998, Week 5
June 1998, Week 4
June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
May 1998, Week 4
May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
October 1997, Week 4
October 1997, Week 3
October 1997, Week 2
October 1997, Week 1
September 1997, Week 5
September 1997, Week 4
September 1997, Week 3
September 1997, Week 2
September 1997, Week 1
August 1997, Week 5
August 1997, Week 4
August 1997, Week 3
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August 1997, Week 1
July 1997, Week 5
July 1997, Week 4
July 1997, Week 3
July 1997, Week 2
July 1997, Week 1
June 1997, Week 5
June 1997, Week 4
June 1997, Week 3
June 1997, Week 2
June 1997, Week 1
May 1997, Week 5
May 1997, Week 4
May 1997, Week 3
May 1997, Week 2
May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
April 1997, Week 4
April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
February 1997, Week 4
February 1997, Week 3
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February 1997, Week 1

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