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AUXLANG  March 2013, Week 3

AUXLANG March 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Support Angos on Kickstarter

From:

Ben <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:24:11 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (80 lines)

On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 23:06:04 -0600, Stephen Rice <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>"Playing
>> the system" is recognizing where the power is, and adapting accordingly.
>
>Fair enough. And the power is found in the fact that people who
>actually could make good use of an auxlang tend to know at least one
>Western language, usually English. So the adaptation is to leverage
>knowledge (however incomplete) of these languages.

It still requires that they learn a Western language, maintaining the hegemony of the West, and that's not even a guarantee they'll find the grammar to be recognizable as well. You don't need me to tell you that English grammar is noticeably different than that of a westlang.

>> Angos has been designed to have universal elements, not just "the most
>> common" ones, and is therefore better adapted to a world environment.
>
>But it's ill adapted to human nature, and I suspect that will prove
>fatal. 

Is it? Will it? I'm banking on human nature's curiosity.

>Because it's easier for someone who knows a Western (or just
>plain European) language to recognize and learn "me" than "wo,"
>"acid-" than "san," "angel-/anjel-" than "malak" (thanks for the
>Hebrew, though). And such people include your primary audience. As
>human beings we are lazy, and we will do what's easiest. That won't be
>Angos. In fact, it will probably be the status quo.
>
>It doesn't matter that "wo" is easier for the Chinese; it matters that
>it is harder for the majority of potential users than something like
>"me." 

It's going to be just as difficult for a westlang. People may recognize the roots, but they're still going to need to learn the phonological/morphological paradigms. Learning any auxlang, regardless how familiar it seems, is going to take significant effort on the learner's part. And this goes back into marketing; if it's marketed well, it won't matter how difficult it is (Klingon, Na'vi). Angos just has the added benefit of a simplified grammar. 

>So, using the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages, then:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages
>
>Now, when I talk about someone "knowing" a Western language, I'm
>talking about roughly A-level proficiency or better, because that's
>all he needs to recognize roots. It's a lower bar with a much higher
>population, thus improving the odds for the westlangs.

I think you'd need higher than A-level to be able to recognize that many roots.

>> Angos is not meant to be instantly recognizable to Romance languages, and
>> I'm not pushing for it to be used in this manner.
>
>Noted. There are different propagation strategies; they aren't all
>at-sight or at-hearing. Even Esperanto isn't. But at-sight requires
>less effort initially, which is why it will do better with lazy
>people, which is almost everybody but geeks.

"Initially", key word. Once they look at the grammar, they're scared off; it's anything but conducive to lazy learning. And that's true of every westlang I've seen so far.

>I doubt anyone has tested to find out who would win a sumo match
>between an actual sumo wrestler and an arthritic midget, either, but I
>suspect the sumo wrestler would prevail. Counter-intuitive outcomes
>occur, but not often. Not in a case like this.

We should look at grammar then if we're talking about how something 'works' for a group. Westlangs are recognizable to this group for sure, but their grammars are still a pain to learn.

>> But vocabulary is superficial. Even with westlangs, I'd have to study the
>> right forms.
>
>But you would probably have a general idea what they were.

Doesn't necessarily make the entire language easier for me. A general idea won't get you very far in terms of communication (Spanish/Portuguese). I can determine the meaning of a Chinese character and have a general idea of the meaning 'and' pronunciation, but I still wouldn't know how to use it in a sentence or if there's a better form to use, etc.

>> If it's gotten enough recognition to have been translated in print into
>> Chinese (inshallah), I'd say the resources have been used efficiently.
>
>I wouldn't. I would call the expenditure efficient if it led to
>Chinese recruits, which isn't likely. Making resources available does
>not force anyone to use them; it just gives people something else to
>ignore.

But in this scenario the demand for the language was high enough for it to happen. It means the publisher thought they could make money from the book, which itself means that the language was a success elsewhere.

-Ben

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