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CONLANG  March 2013, Week 3

CONLANG March 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Is there an inverse relationship between lexical richness and grammatical complexity?

From:

Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 21 Mar 2013 11:35:07 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (89 lines)

On 20 March 2013 14:14, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:29 AM, George Corley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
[...]
>> I don't think this is a given.  Lexical meaning is a very fuzzy thing --
>> you can translate between languages, yes, but very often most of the words
>> actually cover different semantic spaces when considering their use in
>> other contexts.  It's entirely possible to have two words in the same
>> language that mean almost precisely the same thing as well, meaning that
>> you could end up with alternate translations in language A for a single
>> word in language B.
>
> Certainly whenever a complex literary sentence rich with levels of
> meaning is translated to another language, some of the nuances are
> lost. But when you ask the man in the vegetable stall "Do you have any
> cabbage today?" I'm sure that this meaning could be reliably
> translated into any human language that includes the concept of
> "cabbage", without measurable loss of meaning. That being the case,
> there _must_ be _some_ element in each such translation that conveys
> each element of the whole meaning. If some part of the meaning is
> missing then the sentence has not been properly translated. If the
> sentence has been properly translated then no part of the meaning is
> missing, and is therefore carried by some element (or combination of
> elements) in the sentence.
>
> I'm speaking from the point of view of a software engineer. Uncle
> Claude said that if the information is there it's encoded somehow,
> otherwise it isn't really there.

This connects rather well with recent discussion of how to measure the
amount of meaning in a text, how many sentences with different
meanings there are, etc.

I would argue that in most cases, a lot of the information that
appears to be communicated actually *isn't* there in the language-
it's there in the conversants' minds independently already, and just
activated by smaller amounts of information conveyed by the language.
A thought experiment- how well could you get along conversing with
someone (or something- an AI program, e.g.) that had a perfect
knowledge of your language but absolutely no cultural experience? Not
very well, unless you restrict yourself to vegetable-stall sentences.
That category could be formalized as "sentences which actually encode
some large fraction of the information in their intended
interpretations".

As far as determining proper translations is concerned, even those
kinds of sentences may actually *encode* extra information that is
incidentally required by the system of the language, but *not*
important insofar as the intended interpretation or effect of the
sentence is concerned. Thus, we can translate "Do you see the boy?"
into a language without articles either by deciding that definiteness
isn't actually critical to the meaning, but merely required by English
grammar, or by trusting that the audience for the translation has the
right pre-existing background to properly activate the idea of
definiteness despite it not being encoded in language.

On 21 March 2013 06:02, taliesin the storyteller
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
[...]
>
> The problem isn't the string of tokens, the problem is that the sender and
> recipient do not and cannot have the same hardware. An identical string
> *will* be treated differently by different people. Encoding doesn't apply.

Encoding *does* apply, just at an earlier stage. If two people don't
have some large degree of overlap in their understanding of the
encoding system, then they literally "speak different languages".
After you get passed the encoding system, then the problem is that no
two people have the same system for interpretation. I would prefer not
to call it "hardware", though; this may be silly pedantism, but it
really doesn't matter whether the semantic interpretation system is
implemented in hardware or software or any combination of the two.

> .. and there are those that consider true communication between humans
> impossible, as a received attempt at communication is run through the
> emphatic system meaning that the receiver uses the string of tokens as input
> to run a simulation of the reality of the sender in order to guess at what
> the sender is attempting to convey. It's "monkey see, moneky (mentally) do"
> all the way down.

I am aware of that view, but I think it's just silly playing with
definitions of "communication". Clearly, humans *can* accurately
exchange information (in the Claude-Shannon-Information-Theory sense),
which means they can communicate (though sometimes it fails anyway).
Clearly as well, humans can't guarantee that other humans will
experience exactly the same thoughts as they do in response to any
particular input of linguistic information.

-l.

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