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CONLANG  March 2013, Week 3

CONLANG March 2013, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Is there an inverse relationship between lexical richness and grammatical complexity?

From:

Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:57:24 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (124 lines)

On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 1:37 PM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> On 21/03/2013 17:05, Gary Shannon wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>>
>> If a translation of "See the boy." into a language that
>> lacks a definite article fails to covey that sense of
>> "the boy", then that language is at least mildly
>> deficient in that it cannot convey such meanings.
>
>
> Ouch! A bit anglocentric, methinks.

---

I also pointed out how English was deficient. You edited that part out,

> Also, of course, it is incorrect. I do not know of a
> language that _cannot_ convey the meaning of definiteness,
> _if it is required_.  The point is that many languages,
> including important ones like Russian and Chinese, do not
> require nouns always to marked for definiteness or
> indefiniteness.

I agree. I imagine that all languages CAN mark for definiteness. But
if, in a specific translation, they do NOT mark for definiteness then
the translation is not a complete translation, and is somewhat
deficient, lacking some information present in the original.

---

>
>> In spite of those deficiencies, however, it is still
>> possible to communicate clearly and completely enough to
>>  build bridges, buy and sell cabbages, and sing love
>> songs.
>
>
> We know all this. I do not imagine that anyone would
> seriously disagree.
>
> The problem is with the statements in your email of the
> 20th March:
> "In point of fact, if two sentences in two different
> languages carry nearly identical meaning then each element
> of that shared meaning _must_ be carried by some element of
> the sentence, regardless of whether the carrier
> is a word or an affix. It follows that the number of units
> of meaning _must_ be the same from one language to another,
> and the only difference is how those units are divided up
> between lexical words and grammatical 'words' (affixes)."
>
> You seem to be saying that the number of morphemes in one
> language is going to be the same in another.  That just
> ain't so.

---

If a translated sentence carries the same number of units of
information as the original then it contains the same number of units
of information. That's a tautology. How many morphemes per unit of
information may differ from one language to another. (I don't recall
talking about morphemes.)

>> That is all that matters to an engineer. The rest is
>> theoretical ivory tower stuff of no _practical_ value.

---

> How very sad. Also, like all generalizations, I am pleased
> to say, it is not universally true.  Despite the
> stereotypical image, some engineers do appreciate literature
> and poetry, and don't confine it to an 'impractical' ivory
> tower.
>

You have conflated "all that matters to an engineer in his role as an
engineer" with "all that matters to an engineer as a human being".
Surely you didn't mean to imply that every person is nothing more than
his career.

As a human being I love literature an poetry, and art and sculpture.
But as an engineer perspective and chiaroscuro (let alone symbolic use
of form and color) don't concern me when I'm engineering a molecule
for a paint pigment, and balanced composition and use of space don't
concern me when I'm engineering a rivet for a bridge.

Nor do nuances concern me when I'm exploring taking a rough measure of
the information content of a sentence. I think quarks and Higgs bosons
are fascinating things. I just don't take them into account when
measuring the opening for a gate in my garden fence.

My rough measure of units of meaning in a sentence is the gate in the
garden fence, not the quantum wave function of the unobserved virtual
fence.

"My red crayon is broken."
Carries four (?) units of meaning:

1. There exists an instance X of the class crayon.
2. I own X.
3. X is red.
4. X is broken.

That's four units of meaning in a five word sentence. (Perhaps there
are more units of meaning?)

The sentence "I have a crayon that is both read and broken." has ten
words, but seems to carry the same four units of meaning in a
different encoding.

How, then, does "unit of meaning" relate to "morpheme"?.

--gary

> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> "language  began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
> for individual beings and events."
> [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]

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